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satire in Japan - cophnia61 - 2015-05-14
On the topic, I've found this
satire in Japan - vonPeterhof - 2015-05-14
Weird that a discussion of satire in Japan has gone for so long without a single mention of Yatta! Although to be fair, back when this song first became "a thing" most viewers in the West probably just saw it as just another "weird Chinese thingy" and couldn't detect the social commentary in it.
And here's a more recent example. Even though the politician they were satirizing had already become the laughing stock of the internet, apparently the higher-ups were still really nervous about airing the segment. I haven't watched or read much of Gintama yet, but from what I hear this is far from the first time they've pulled off something like this - there apparently was a whole story arc dedicated to making fun of another politician.
There are quite a few manga and anime franchises with harsh social commentary, but most of the ones I know of don't really count as satire. Some of them are biting without really being comedic (Psycho-Pass, 残響のテロル, 東のエデン, the works of Satoshi Kon), others bury the bite under layers of borderline absurd imagery (the aforementioned ムダヅモ無き改革/Legend of Koizumi, さよなら絶望先生, the "Little Tokyo" episode of Panty & Stocking with Garterbelt), and yet others combine the two approaches (the works of Kunihiko Ikuhara). I suppose the purest example of satire in recent manga and anime I can think of is 私がモテないのはどう考えてもお前らが悪い!, although some argue that this manga devotes less time to satirizing societal expectations and teenage obsessions with sex and popularity than it does to making mean-spirited fun of its socially awkward protagonist. Either way, it seems to be quite a bit more popular with foreign manga fans than with Japanese otaku.
satire in Japan - Aikynaro - 2015-05-14
I'm also curious if CureDolly has lived in Japan. There is no way you could live here and not have things about society and politics here that bug you.
Let's take a really uncontroversial example: during every election politicians drive around in cars with megaphones mounted on the top shouting their name all through suburbia as they try to drum up some votes. They are actually prohibited by law to advertise their policies using these cars, so it's just yelling some vague slogans and repeating the candidate's name again and again.
It's the most ludicrously stupid obnoxious nonsense there is. You won't find a single person - Japanese or not - who thinks that this is a useful activity. There's nothing harmonious about being woken up by some self-aggrandized dickhead driving around suburbia yelling their name at you.
And yet it continues. Every election. Why?
My guess is: there is no structure in Japan where stupid things can be criticised.
I mean, I'm sure someone has written an editorial on what a stupid practice it is, but there's no way to galvanise the irritation and repulsion the ordinary person feels for this practice. Criticising it is at best an intellectual activity and at worst a bit of a whinge that no one ever hears.
Unless you can really drum up some dedicated movement no one is going to care what you think, and drumming up any dedicated criticism in a country as apolitical as Japan is a crazy-hard task.
But satire is different. You don't need to get people to care deeply about whatever your issue is - you just need to get them to laugh at it. And your issue doesn't need to be deep and worthy of sustained critique - it can be stupid and trivial. But equally, you have permission to tackle big issues that might be dangerous to launch a big frontal attack on. By making people laugh at something it can be changed - because no one wants to continue something that's ridiculous.
Sorry if I'm turning this into a big lecture, but it's something that really frustrates me living here. Obviously stupid things escape criticism by there simply not being any really relevant way for it to be done. It feels like everyone's basically given up and resigned themselves to tolerating stupid shit forever. There are plenty of strong negative opinions that are common in Japan that I've never seen aired on a TV show - it's too 'heavy' - most people don't want to watch that sort of thing (well, there are some pretty good current affairs panel shows that sometimes delve into this sort of thing, but that's more for the Big Issues of the day like nuclear power and such, rather than the day-to-day stuff). Satire - even pretty light and harmless satire - could be a big help. Or at least be a bit cathartic.
The lack of satire also doesn't mean that there's no cynicism. People are incredibly cynical about the government and such - I don't think I've met anyone who trusts that the government has their best interests at heart.
(don't feel obliged to respond if you don't want to get drawn in deeper to this - this has just turned into a good spot for me to vent about my issues with Japan)
satire in Japan - umetani666 - 2015-05-14
Aikynaro Wrote:The lack of satire also doesn't mean that there's no cynicism.why do you still insist there's lack of satire in japan? judging from your posts in 'book report' thread, you mostly read juvenile fiction, so that might be a part of the problem. some of the most famous japanese writers like ryunosuke akutagawa, kenzaburo oe and kobo abe have written satire. also, some of the most famous japanese directors like nagisa oshima, juzo itami, takashi miike and sion sono extensively use satire in their work. these are all well-know authors in japan, not some obscure no-names. so don't tell me there's lack of satire in japan.
satire in Japan - DrJones - 2015-05-14
It looks like this is akin to the quack of the duck being indistinguishable from its echo.
satire in Japan - Aikynaro - 2015-05-14
umetani666 Wrote:I'm not saying there is no satire, necessarily - but it's not a big part of popular culture. I have never turned on my TV and just happened to catch a satirical show. I have only very rarely encountered any in anime or manga, and even then it's pretty muted and hardly a general trend. But the lack of satire on TV when comedy is such a big thing is what gets me.Aikynaro Wrote:The lack of satire also doesn't mean that there's no cynicism.why do you still insist there's lack of satire in japan? judging from your posts in 'book report' thread, you mostly read juvenile fiction, so that might be a part of the problem. some of the most famous japanese writers like ryunosuke akutagawa, kenzaburo oe and kobo abe have written satire. also, some of the most famous japanese directors like nagisa oshima, juzo itami, takashi miike and sion sono extensively use satire in their work. these are all well-know authors in japan, not some obscure no-names. so don't tell me there's lack of satire in japan.
But sure - I'm not disputing what you're saying. I trust you when you say that there's literary satire out there. That's not what I'm worried about. It's the sort of low-brow satire that cuts through to a reasonable percentage of the population that's lacking. America has The Daily Show, Australia has (or at least, had) The Chaser - shows that provide continuous commentary on society and cover all sorts of issues with big audiences. Plus legions of comedians and cartoonists ready to hold up a mirror to society and current events as they happen. That's what Japan is lacking.
satire in Japan - CureDolly - 2015-05-14
@Cophnia-san: First let me explain that when I write about purity and goodness in Japanese kawaii, I am not trying to make any statement about the state of Japan. I don't consider myself an expert on that, and it isn't my subject. I am talking about an ideal.
I am not trying to say "Kawaii expresses fundamental goodness, therefore Japan is wholly good". I am saying "Kawaii expresses fundamental goodness, therefore it is, in and of itself regardless of anything else, a good thing".
Neither am I saying that any particular person "ought" to embrace it. I am saying that I do and suggesting that some people who feel similarly might want to. If one doesn't feel similarly, that's fine too. I am not preaching.
The term "preaching" is important here. I think the whole orientation of West Humans' thinking these days is around preaching. They don't call it preaching any more. They call it "politics", but it comes out of the same basic thinking of Christianity. The whole world is seen as a "moral problem". One is supposed to be constantly criticizing and improving it. Rather like Old Testament prophets.
If one says something about one aspect of a country (like kawaii) one is taken to be making some kind of value judgement about the country as a whole. Or if one isn't one is "burying one's head", and "not seeing the terrible truth". One is supposed to be making a value-judgement.
But I don't make judgements about foreign societies. And I regard every society on this planet as foreign (which also means I don't have a standard of comparison).
And just to explain, finding everywhere foreign is not some katte ni decision or affectation of mine. It is just how I am. I haven't been able to "fit in" anywhere or make any sense of the culture or find much sense of kinship in this world. That isn't something I do for fun. It has been very troublesome to me.
And I know this world is full of monstrous things. I read its history and its current state and sometimes it seems like a demon-world. But there are lovely things in it too.
When I was in Japan, my host-oniisan read really rather nasty rape-ish (I think) pornography quite openly. I don't know a lot about Western people from personal experience but I have a feeling they would at least hide it under the bed.
What did I think about that. "I don't like it, but then I don't like a great deal of what goes on on this planet. I don't think I am here to reform it or even criticize it." I don't mean just that I shouldn't interfere with my host family's life (obviously I shouldn't) but neither do I blog about it. It is not my affair. I am not here to reform the world.
Similarly when I say how much I don't like satire and the associated mentality, I am not saying it is "wrong". I am not "campaigning" against it. I am just saying I personally don't like it.
You may think that is very passive of me, and you may think I am wrong. That I have a "duty" to be "campaigning". But I don't understand this foreign world enough to "campaign". I don't understand things like ”sexuality”. I don't know why humans find it so fascinating to poke bits of their bodies into other people's bodies. I don't understand why they think it is good or funny to use words that invoke bodily acts and parts and waste products that they also find "dirty". I don't know why they spend so much of their time trying to hurt each other in ways ranging from verbal nastiness to grotesque physical cruelty. I don't know why they enjoy cruelty as a fictional (and sometimes non-fictional) spectacle.
I just shrug and think "strange people". And I look for the places where Universal Goodness shines through.
So you see, I am not trying to make a "point" that is applicable to anyone else. Just saying how I am.
@Aikynaro: As to my experience of Japan. I think I have experienced Japan more deeply than I have experienced any other country. But that isn't saying much, I will admit. I have seen its family life and somehow been able to absorb more of it than any other place I have been in, and I am in love with it - but not because I think it is "all good" or that any place is.
Currently I live in a place where I barely speak the language, and the people in the main apartment of the big house I am in ritually sacrifice chickens most days (seriously). That is their way, I think and I expect that is what is right for them. They aren't any stranger to me than any other humans. I do not know them except to say hello. I find this place beautiful in many ways. I know far less about its goings-on (political, personal, all kinds) than I do about Japan. I enjoy what is lovely.
satire in Japan - cophnia61 - 2015-05-14
CureDolly Wrote:@Cophinia-san: First let me explain that when I write about purity and goodness in Japanese kawaii, I am not trying to make any statement about the state of Japan. I don't consider myself an expert on that, and it isn't my subject. I am talking about an ideal.Thank you for your answer! I think I understand your point of view also because I feel to some extent similar... In fact it is exactly why I decided to study japanese. I feel so "out of place" where I live, also but not only for the things you said, that I have seen in Japan like a place where to find refuge. But now I see it's not exactly the perfect world as I saw it but I still think it would be a good place for people like me to live in. But exactly this made me think about the pro and cons of japanese society. So idealistically speaking it's all good but if I think of a drastic move as leave everything behind to live in Japan I think it's good to be more practical and think about practical things too, for example the working conditions and how they will evolve in the next years. Bacause of this I started this topic. I think the Japanese way of life is beautiful in many aspects but if I go to Japane I must obviously work, I must entertain social relationships, and so on...
I am not trying to say "Kawaii expresses fundamental goodness, therefore Japan is wholly good". I am saying "Kawaii expresses fundamental goodness, therefore it is, in and of itself regardless of anything else, a good thing".
Neither am I saying that any particular person "ought" to embrace it. I am saying that I do and suggesting that some people who feel similarly might want to. If one doesn't feel similarly, that's fine too. I am not preaching.
The term "preaching" is important here. I think the whole orientation of West Humans' thinking these days is around preaching. They don't call it preaching any more. They call it "politics", but it comes out of the same basic thinking of Christianity. The whole world is seen as a "moral problem". One is supposed to be constantly criticizing and improving it. Rather like Old Testament prophets.
If one says something about one aspect of a country (like kawaii) one is taken to be making some kind of value judgement about the country as a whole. Or if one isn't one is "burying one's head", and "not seeing the terrible truth". One is supposed to be making a value-judgement.
But I don't make judgements about foreign societies. And I regard every society on this planet as foreign (which also means I don't have a standard of comparison).
And just to explain, finding everywhere foreign is not some katte ni decision or affectation of mine. It is just how I am. I haven't been able to "fit in" anywhere or make any sense of the culture or find much sense of kinship in this world. That isn't something I do for fun. It has been very troublesome to me.
And I know this world is full of monstrous things. I read its history and its current state and sometimes it seems like a demon-world. But there are lovely things in it too.
When I was in Japan, my host-oniisan read really rather nasty rape-ish (I think) pornography quite openly. I don't know a lot about Western people from personal experience but I have a feeling they would at least hide it under the bed.
What did I think about that. "I don't like it, but then I don't like a great deal of what goes on on this planet. I don't think I am here to reform it or even criticize it." I don't mean just that I shouldn't interfere with my host family's life (obviously I shouldn't) but neither do I blog about it. It is not my affair. I am not here to reform the world.
Similarly when I say how much I don't like satire and the associated mentality, I am not saying it is "wrong". I am not "campaigning" against it. I am just saying I personally don't like it.
You may think that is very passive of me, and you may think I am wrong. That I have a "duty" to be "campaigning". But I don't understand this foreign world enough to "campaign". I don't understand things like ”sexuality”. I don't know why humans find it so fascinating to poke bits of their bodies into other people's bodies. I don't understand why they think it is good or funny to use words that invoke bodily acts and parts and waste products that they also find "dirty". I don't know why they spend so much of their time trying to hurt each other in ways ranging from verbal nastiness to grotesque physical cruelty. I don't know why they enjoy cruelty as a fictional (and sometimes non-fictional) spectacle.
I just shrug and think "strange people". And I look for the places where Universal Goodness shines through.
So you see, I am not trying to make a "point" that is applicable to anyone else. Just saying how I am.
@Aikynaro: As to my experience of Japan. I think I have experienced Japan more deeply than I have experienced any other country. But that isn't saying much, I will admit. I have seen its family life and somehow been able to absorb more of it than any other place I have been in, and I am in love with it - but not because I think it is "all good" or that any place is.
Currently I live in a place where I barely speak the language, and the people in the main apartment of the big house I am in ritually sacrifice chickens most days (seriously). That is their way, I think and I expect that is what is right for them. They aren't any stranger to me than any other humans. I do not know them except to say hello. I find this place beautiful in many ways. I know far less about its goings-on (political, personal, all kinds) than I do about Japan. I enjoy what is lovely.
So this was more of a topic to keep myself informed of how really is the social contidion of Japan and what are the perspectives for the near future (and this explains why I asked about how much complaining there between japanese people about the working issues). So yes, I love Japan because I love the kawaii as you perfectly described it, and I think Japan has this kawaii (harmony, peace, respect and so on...) more than any western cowntry, but at the same time I am scared of the other aspect of Japan which goes against the "kawaii", and because of this I wondered how much of this unkawaiiness there is, how much it is a western distortion of things and how much things will change in the future based on how much awareness there is among japanese people about those issues that mine the harmony.
So I had no polemical intentions and I thank you very much for your contribution to the discussion!
Also reading some of the things you wrote made me less demoralized about society and human beings... maybe there is no a perfect "kawaii" cowntry in the geografical sense, but there are people like you that make kawainess less utopian and more actual
Also I'm very mad at you because with your blog you make me read english instead of japanese xD (just kidding!)
EDIT:
CureDolly-san, could I ask you if you have read Norwegian Wood (if I remember right in another thread you said you have read it) and if you like the character of Naoko? I think she embodies perfectly the ideal of kawaii you described and I think it's not a coincidence she is a character of a japanese novel. I ton't think there are other characters as "ideal" as Naoko in other novels
satire in Japan - Bokusenou - 2015-05-14
Splatted Wrote:Great thread. There are some worrying messages in Japanese media and I've always wondered to what extent they're representative of attitudes in Japan. I think the daily show and last week tonight etc are actually quite special by TV broadcasting standards though. Multiple comedians in the UK have spoken up regarding how they're often forbidden from talking about certain issues on TV and national radio and specifically that no one is allowed to make a British equivalent to the Daily Show.What!!? Really? That's too bad...I'd like to watch Daily Show equivalents from other countries, and if Japan had one I'd watch it as much as possible, especially since Japan, like any country, isn't without things to satirize. The latest Last Week Tonight even had a part on Japanese mascots. (
) Maybe I should start watching Gintama...
satire in Japan - CureDolly - 2015-05-14
Thank you so much, Cophnia-san. I understand your position much better now. I absolutely understand and empathize with your worries. I don't think it will be possible for me to live in Japan, but if I could I would, and like you I would be concerned about the kind of possible difficulties you mention. I can't help much there but I will be here to 応援する you any time you want me to.
I haven't read Norwegian Wood (I think that must have been someone else) but you inspire me to look for it!
cophnia61 Wrote:Also I'm very mad at you because with your blog you make me read english instead of japanese xD (just kidding!)And you are absolutely right. I don't like writing so much "about" Japanese in English either. I don't really understand why Japanese learners are so determined to stay in English for most of their communication (even the parts where they really don't need to).
We are trying hard to do something about that problem. And we honestly could use your help
If you really mean what you say (and I believe you do). Please come to the Kawaii Japanese Forums and please join in. Our mission is to break the "English curse" and start communicating in Japanese among ourselves.
仲良くしましょうね。Let's become friends. And let's do it in our own heart's language. Not English, not Italian, but Japanese! We may stumble in Japanese, but 七転び八起き(fall down seven times, get up eight times)ね。
See you there! (Cophnia-san and anyone who wants to brave the Japanese Dragon and meet us there)
satire in Japan - visualsense - 2015-05-14
I don't have any online forum to recommend, by writing I meant there is a lot of public debate in print and that Japanese still read a lot of dead tree stuff.
To be honest, I think most people in western countries don't enjoy reading about hard issues, and don't have a real interest in politics (only in magic "fast and easy" solutions), and that's why comedy shows that simplify and sweeten issues with entertainment became the sole news (and opinion) source for so many people.
That has been noted elsewhere, how ridiculous is that a comedy show is the most well-regarded news commentary source in America (outside the Fox News lovers, of course).
The Daily Show doesn't demonstrate how great is the political commentary in US, it is the exactly opposite, it shows how terrible every news-source in US are. I mean Fox News is the obviously partisan one, but are the others much better? Every single US news-source supported one of the US' wars at one time or the other, one could say they just make a dance to feign neutrality.
In fact I would argue that Daily Show is (unwittingly for the ppl that work on it) nothing more than an escape valve that allows people to re-tweet a couple vids, laugh, and think they did enough political activism, while all the warmongering goes unaffected elsewhere.
edit: I'm not claiming that in Japan it is better, or they "got it right" in comparison. I just think Japan is like every other country, better here, worse there, but it is not some bizarre outlier country.
Also note that news only report "extraordinary" things, so you won't read in English about ordinary stuff of other countries, just the freakish stuff. So, (statistically) most of our opinions about how freakish Japan or Russia or Brazil are, are most likely very wrong and distorted, and let's be honest, racist (well, bigoted).
edit 2: "nothing more than an escape valve" was an wrong statement from my part, it was more than just an escape valve, but I'm not sure it reaches people who are not already left-leaning
satire in Japan - Stansfield123 - 2015-05-14
CureDolly Wrote:I am probably alone here, but one of the things I like about Japan is the relative absence of the current cynical, nagging, constantly-critical culture of Western countries.You're not alone. The kind of satire American and British political comics/satirists engage in is just stupid and repetitive nonsense. Even the audience they cater to is only giving them applause breaks, not actual laughs.
I sincerely hope "biting satire" never becomes a thing in Japan.
TheVinster Wrote:So you're saying if Japan had a show similar to "The Daily Show" (comparable in production value, writing, etc), you'd have a problem with that? Because if it's good satire then I'm all for it. I'm quite sick of the people who try to make issues out of nothing, but nothing wrong with quality satire.The Daily Show is everything that's wrong with American political satire. It doesn't get any worse than that.
jimeux Wrote:I think a healthy level of cynicism comes from a healthy level of critical thinking. Even if you can keep laughing at never-ending rehashes of Laurel and Hardy (Japanese humour)Cynicism has nothing to do with critical thinking. Cynicism is a negative bias, and critical thinking implies objectivity.
As for the second statement I'm quoting, I have no desire to argue your point, I just left it in there because it's such a great illustration of why cynicism is the enemy of critical thinking.
satire in Japan - yogert909 - 2015-05-14
Stansfield123 Wrote:The Daily Show is everything that's wrong with American political satire. It doesn't get any worse than that.I don't watch the daily show, but I have to disagree with you anyway. The daily show and saturday night live are the only shows that I can think of that discuss politics which both liberals and conservatives watch. I've even heard the daily show is quite loved in the fox news studios. That's the power of satire and humor more broadly - people who disagree with a joke's premise can laugh it off as a joke, but they have to think about the joke's implications just the same.
satire in Japan - juniperpansy - 2015-05-14
CureDolly Wrote:It is interesting how the views of most English speakers (and possibly Westerners in general) on subjects like this don't vary much.In all honesty if Japanese culture stayed "Japanese" they would be still be like North Korea. Satire/critique is important to keep ordinary people from becoming gods.
Certainly it can be argued that western culture has too much satire/critique but if people are unwilling to point out the problems in society how are they ever going to be fixed?
Also I agree with you on not really liking western popular culture. Put simply it sucks. It does not present role models (either good or bad) for people to follow. From what I have seen from Japanese culture it is equally bad though. It has a different slant, but still (rarely) has any role models. Different countries but same BS!!
btw I love your site too dolly
satire in Japan - jimeux - 2015-05-14
Stansfield123 Wrote:I guess I fell into this trap:jimeux Wrote:I think a healthy level of cynicism comes from a healthy level of critical thinking. Even if you can keep laughing at never-ending rehashes of Laurel and Hardy (Japanese humour)Cynicism has nothing to do with critical thinking. Cynicism is a negative bias, and critical thinking implies objectivity.
Wiki Wrote:Thus, contemporary usage incorporates both a form of jaded prudence and (when misapplied) realistic criticism or skepticism.If you stick to the original definition and assume there's no such thing as a healthy level of cynicism, then I guess it's realistic criticism and scepticism that Japan appears to lack. I did hint that becoming cynical is almost inevitable, but I guess it would be nice if we could maintain realism and scepticism without falling into jaded negativity and bitterness. Where do you draw the line though? How many times can you critically assess the same thing before cynically dismissing it?
satire in Japan - CureDolly - 2015-05-14
@juniperpansy Thank you so much for your kind words. I am so happy that you are enjoying my blog.
I really am not trying to say that people should not criticize anything. I think intelligent criticism is one thing and ugly cynicism is another. In fact I think ugly cynicism rather undermines intelligent criticism by poisoning the waters and being nasty and cynical about everything, deserving or not.
I am going to have to say that I know almost as little about Japanese pop culture in general as I know about Western pop culture. I can hardly name a "celebrity" from either (actually I know a couple of names in both cases but wouldn't recognize a photograph).
But I do see how the English language in regular use is saturated with a level of cynicism that Japanese isn't, and to me that seems like a really miserable way to live. But heck, I'm just a doll and Western people seem happy enough living that way.
To me the issue isn't whether or not criticism takes place but the way it cynicism-for-its-own-sake saturates the culture and language all over, including places where there is nothing any reasonable person would criticize. There seems to be a culture of aggressive wariness and ingratitude that I find really unpleasant.
And when I say "ingratitude" I don't mean to some politician, but to the bounty of life. A sort of "whatever one has one takes for granted and whatever one doesn't have one resents" to iu attitude.
But again, really I don't know much about it in specific terms, it is just what I feel in the air and in the way the language is used. And my feeling is that if that kind of mean-spirited attitude is the price of criticism then the price is too high. The cure is worse than the disease.
In fact I don't think it is. I would imagine one could be intelligently critical without being cynical and without becoming "The Daily Show" (I saw it once and that was three times too many).
(Actually I didn't sit it out so it was only twice too many).
satire in Japan - cophnia61 - 2015-05-15
CureDolly Wrote:Thank you so much, Cophnia-san. I understand your position much better now. I absolutely understand and empathize with your worries. I don't think it will be possible for me to live in Japan, but if I could I would, and like you I would be concerned about the kind of possible difficulties you mention. I can't help much there but I will be here to 応援する you any time you want me to.Thank to you! I would like very much to be your friend
I haven't read Norwegian Wood (I think that must have been someone else) but you inspire me to look for it!
cophnia61 Wrote:Also I'm very mad at you because with your blog you make me read english instead of japanese xD (just kidding!)And you are absolutely right. I don't like writing so much "about" Japanese in English either. I don't really understand why Japanese learners are so determined to stay in English for most of their communication (even the parts where they really don't need to).
We are trying hard to do something about that problem. And we honestly could use your help
If you really mean what you say (and I believe you do). Please come to the Kawaii Japanese Forums and please join in. Our mission is to break the "English curse" and start communicating in Japanese among ourselves.
仲良くしましょうね。Let's become friends. And let's do it in our own heart's language. Not English, not Italian, but Japanese! We may stumble in Japanese, but 七転び八起き(fall down seven times, get up eight times)ね。
See you there! (Cophnia-san and anyone who wants to brave the Japanese Dragon and meet us there)
I'm going do register to your forum after I submit this message 
satire in Japan - Tzadeck - 2015-05-15
This whole conversation just makes me wonder how CureDolly's 'doll' character, if that's what it's properly called, relates to her IRL humanness.
satire in Japan - cophnia61 - 2015-05-15
lol it became a conversation about curedolly xD
satire in Japan - umetani666 - 2015-05-15
i find it more interesting that she managed to persuade you to register at her forum by explicitly not preaching about it.
satire in Japan - cophnia61 - 2015-05-15
umetani666 Wrote:i find it more interesting that she managed to persuade you to register at her forum by explicitly not preaching about it.To be sincere I liked his/her (maybe he is a male doll, or a sexless doll
) blog from before and I was already thinking to register to his forum 
satire in Japan - juniperpansy - 2015-05-15
CureDolly Wrote:I really am not trying to say that people should not criticize anything. I think intelligent criticism is one thing and ugly cynicism is another. In fact I think ugly cynicism rather undermines intelligent criticism by poisoning the waters and being nasty and cynical about everything, deserving or not.I see what your saying . Unfortunately I don't think this is possible. We have zero criticism places like North Korea, which on the surface everything is very positive (haha) but as soon as society starts to allow criticism, there will be intelligent criticism as well as cynicism. I really don't think its possible to have only the positive one.
I guess I am lucky though. Where I live I would consider people pretty positive. There is some cynicism but its not too hard to avoid those people here :p. We have boatloads of Japanese international students here. It is very common for them to say people are friendlier here than in Japan (Of course this is a biased sample!). Many of them were lonely in Japan because people were so afraid of inconveniencing each other nobody would actually talk to each other haha
Anyways best of luck finding a place that you can be happy and truly call your home!
satire in Japan - CureDolly - 2015-05-15
Oh gosh. I do apologize. I didn't mean to turn the conversation onto me personally. I really only meant to pop my point of view fairly briefly at first, but it gets more complex and in order to explain what I think I have to explain who I am as the two things are so connected.
I did have misgivings about saying anything at all, and I was probably right. But it's been fun anyway (hasn't it?) Well if I have 迷惑をかけちゃった I really do apologize.
(For the record I am a female doll, but we do tend to be quite sexless).
There are other things I might say on the subject of satire etc. But they say a joke isn't funny if you have to explain it, and the same is probably true of a point of view that is so "alien" that it requires biographical footnotes.
Thank you so much for what is the dearest wish in the world to me, Juniperpansy-san. I am not unhappy, but feeling even half at home somewhere would be kind of nice! I know that from Japan (懐かしいなぁ）
Oh and sorry to preach about the Forums too. I did, didn't I? Thank you for joining Cophnia-san. I'll PM you there. In actual Language!
satire in Japan - Zgarbas - 2015-05-16
Aikynaro Wrote:Certainly feminism is not a thing in Japan. There's been no generations long struggle for women's rights or anything, and I think by and large people coast along and accept things as the way they are. Stuff like universal suffrage wasn't fought for in Japan (or, well, maybe it was - but they lost) - it was granted. Even the current push for more equality seems to me more like something granted by the old men in charge of the country for the benefit of the economy rather than something that anyone is actively fighting for.Feminism in Japan was a thing way before its time. Read feminist literature of the 1930s and it casually mentions what Western feminism only started saying in the 1970s. Unfortunately, Early Shouwa politics means they were all imprisoned and/or executed, and satire wasn't seen as too good of a thing either. You know what nips a movement in the bud? Killing all of its speakers.
Probably the people most vocally critical of current Japanese society are the ultra-nationalists who drive around in their black vans being obnoxious. The only time I felt anything counter-cultural in Japan was when I was in Hiroshima and there was some art gallery doing something that I don't really remember and some Japanese girl wearing a Sea Shepherd t-shirt and I was like 'wow, Hiroshima is hardcore', but that's just relative to the total lack of political engagement or opinion that I encounter in Tokyo. There are protests and stuff, but no one's out to change or critique society - just their pet issue (the anti-nuclear people, the pacifist constitution).
Well, that I've seen, anyway. Maybe they're just so ineffective that I've never encountered it.
That being said, woman's lib in the 1970s was HUGE, and academically feminism is very much a thing, it just gets tossed aside as restricted to academia. Same for LGBT rights, the anti-nuclear movement and other social movements; they're there, but unless you seek them out you won't find them (and what you do run into casually is strangely separated from reality - see the terribly mislead news articles about Shibuya-ku and same-sex marriage, which is Westerners getting hyped over a a law which says that you can visit your roommate in hospital, a misunderstanding which is not at all intentional, I'm sure). 'pet issues' is how you manage to change society, you can't just say 'woo let's change everything', you take it one step at the time.
The fact that human rights movements are virtually invisible is a disturbing part of Japan, that's for sure, but they most definitely exist. People actively fighting for their beliefs and getting ignored in mainstream discourse is not really that different from most Western countries, though; I'm not sure how you manage to live in Tokyo and not meet anyone who is politically involved... maybe you're just hanging out with the wrong crowd?
re: Female PM, please, tell me more about how female PMs and presidents have always been a common aspect of the enlightened West.
satire in Japan - vonPeterhof - 2015-05-16
Zgarbas Wrote:Feminism in Japan was a thing way before its time. Read feminist literature of the 1930s and it casually mentions what Western feminism only started saying in the 1970s. Unfortunately, Taisho era politics means they were all imprisoned and/or executed, and the same goes for the satirists.Don't you mean (pre-War) Showa? I'm pretty sure that the Taisho era is remembered as a golden age of liberalism in Japan. Besides, the article you linked to specifies the time period starting in 1937, which is well into Showa.