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Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - Alhusseini - 2015-04-08
I usually write out each new kanji but lately this has been a major pain in the neck especially with all my schoolwork. Could I get away with not writing anything?
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - CureDolly - 2015-04-08
I wrote an article on this exact subject a while back as there is quite a lot to consider:
https://kawaiijapanese.wordpress.com/2014/06/16/do-you-need-to-write-kanji/
In a nutshell, given the right conditions (and with a few reservations), I believe you can indeed get away with it.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - Roketzu - 2015-04-08
It's absolutely possible to come back to writing after you've spent years studying everything else, and if you put in the hours you can make significant progress in just a few months. I hadn't practised writing for years and in the last 4 months I've come to be able to write pretty much anything that comes to mind. I don't think I'd have been able to get this point as fast as I have without using Skritter, and if Anki had some form handwriting recognition it'd be absolutely perfect. I will say that although writing on a tablet with a pen does make it easy to then draw kanji on paper, it'll take a while to get your writing to look good if you haven't done it in a while. The writing of the strokes transfers fine as a muscle memory skill, but proportionality goes out the window and you've got to just get good at both separately, I've found.
I've also noticed additional benefits besides just having the ability to write. While my reading ability was already good before getting serious about writing, I'd say say the difference between then and now is that now words seem somewhat clearer in my mind and on the page. I may have had no problems reading compounds before, but if you were to pick a kanji at random I may have forgotten what it means by itself. This problem almost completely disappears when your writing gets to a certain point. It becomes much easier to distinguish between similar looking kanji because you've written them so many times; you've associated them with the compounds they are a part of to a much stronger degree than you ever do by just reading, so even if they look similar they seem very different in your mind. I didn't have this feeling before, similar looking kanji when switched out would probably have fooled me if I were to be tested on them. There are some like 義議儀 that I'm still not 100% confident with because (to me at least) the compounds they belong to aren't always categorically distinguishable, but I'm sure it's just a matter of time before they fall into place like everything else has.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - CureDolly - 2015-04-08
Roketzu-san is absolutely right. If you need to recognize kanji out of context, writing them is by far the best way.
Since writing the article I have actually done more writing than I had at that time, mostly via DS Kanten Training on my 3DS. I also find Kanji Recognizer for Android is the quickest way to look up kanji, and I do that by writing them. I don't have a lot of trouble writing kanji I can see, or know well, since I am familiar with the radicals and can write them.
Am I going back on what I said in the article? No. I stand by everything I said then. I still almost never pick up a pencil for English or Japanese and I still regard my rather minimal onscreen writing as optional. Though I actually like it and enjoy gaining a deeper understanding of the construction and stroke order.
I have never thought that one shouldn't write, just that (depending on one's needs) it may not be necessary, and that it is simply not a magic bullet for learning kanji.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - Zgarbas - 2015-04-09
You can easily get away with it. I almost never wrote kanjis.
It depends what you want to do with japanese though, I find that though my recognition skills are quite high, my lack of writing exercise shows. Taking notes in classes is painful, and submitting anything handwritten (or just taking notes in front of people) gets really embarassing really fast. Looking back, I regret not practicing writing more, even though it has little bearing on my overall level. It doesn't have as big of an impact as, say, my totally chaotic use of basic particles (no speaking practice or production for 4 years = all my beginner mistakes stuck around), though.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - cophnia61 - 2015-04-09
Man lately I have the same doubt. Because it takes much time to review them even if I don't actually write them but just visualize them in my head. So Zgarbas, CureDolly and Roketzu how do you review kanji, if you review them? Thank in advance!
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - Roketzu - 2015-04-09
cophnia61 Wrote:Man lately I have the same doubt. Because it takes much time to review them even if I don't actually write them but just visualize them in my head. So Zgarbas, CureDolly and Roketzu how do you review kanji, if you review them? Thank in advance!I used to review kanji when I had just started learning Japanese, but I felt the need for it disappeared at some point. When I did review I didn't use RTK but something more like KanjiDamage, and I was always lenient, didn't care if I didn't remember the English meaning, as long as I remembered at least the most common onyomi I'd pass it. I also never went from keyword ➡ kanji, only ever did kanji ➡ keyword/onyomi--more emphasis on the onyomi. For new kanji now I just remember how to write it and use it as part of whatever compound it's in because the kanji I study now only belong to a few uncommon words most of the time.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - CureDolly - 2015-04-09
Truthfully I have never used RTK (I started, but learning kanji out of context seemed far too clinical for me). So I have always learned words. I am very aware of a kanji's components ("radicals"), many of which are words in their own right.
So what I review is words. I only ever know a kanji first in the context of a word and then of several words.
For example, to me 証 (あかし) kind of reads as 言う＋正し(く) since I learned kanji as words, not Heisig keywords. So it is (to put in English, which I don't) "correctly say" and I tend to remember that it sounds like お菓子 with あ. So I somewhat associate the rather abstract grown-up word with the more immediate everyday one.
I have a vocab Anki which has words in kanji on the front, so if I have trouble remebering (one of) the kanji I will review any mnemonic I have for it, possibly tweak it or make a new one if I feel it isn't working (I write memonics on the back of the card if it is troublesome so I can review the mnemonic too). Of course I fail the card so I will be re-reviewing soon, and the whole SRS process can do its thing.
To me, treating kanji as a separate problem would just make life more difficult and one's knowledge of the language more fragmented and less organic.
But that's just me.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - cophnia61 - 2015-04-09
Roketzu Wrote:It looks exactly like what I'm doing. As I dropped japanese some time ago, now that I've re-started with it, it's very difficult for me to use keywords so I do kanji to japanese, with emphasis to onyomi as you said, like "真" on front and I say "しん" of "真実". This works well for similar kanji with the same onyomi, because you say the onyomi AND an actual word in which the kanji appears. Like: "警" -> "けい of 警察"; 敬 -> "けい of 尊敬".cophnia61 Wrote:Man lately I have the same doubt. Because it takes much time to review them even if I don't actually write them but just visualize them in my head. So Zgarbas, CureDolly and Roketzu how do you review kanji, if you review them? Thank in advance!I used to review kanji when I had just started learning Japanese, but I felt the need for it disappeared at some point. When I did review I didn't use RTK but something more like KanjiDamage, and I was always lenient, didn't care if I didn't remember the English meaning, as long as I remembered at least the most common onyomi I'd pass it. I also never went from keyword ➡ kanji, only ever did kanji ➡ keyword/onyomi--more emphasis on the onyomi. For new kanji now I just remember how to write it and use it as part of whatever compound it's in because the kanji I study now only belong to a few uncommon words most of the time.
So I already have a recognition deck that I find very useful and at the moment I think it would be detrimental to drop it and I would suggest to every student of japanese to study kanji by themselves at least in the beginning, as you said.
But then I have a production deck too, so I wonder if the benefits of it are enough to justify the time spent reviewing :/
Also, if I could ask Roketzu, you do or used to do vocabulary / sentences with Anki or do you rely only on reading (a la Steve Kaufmann)?
And what about the other? I want to hear from you too
Thank you in advance!
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - cophnia61 - 2015-04-09
CureDolly Wrote:Truthfully I have never used RTK (I started, but learning kanji out of context seemed far too clinical for me). So I have always learned words. I am very aware of a kanji's components ("radicals"), many of which are words in their own right.Sorry I didn't see your answer before! So you still rely upon radicals/components decomposition and even mnemonics when you need it. I understand, so you don't feel the need to be able to write 証 to be able to tell it apart from other kanji. This reinforce what I was thinking... The key factor is to identify the components so for example if you see 絡 there is no way to misreat it for 格 even if you never write it from memory?
So what I review is words. I only ever know a kanji first in the context of a word and then of several words.
For example, to me 証 (あかし) kind of reads as 言う＋正し(く) since I learned kanji as words, not Heisig keywords. So it is (to put in English, which I don't) "correctly say" and I tend to remember that it sounds like お菓子 with あ. So I somewhat associate the rather abstract grown-up word with the more immediate everyday one.
I have a vocab Anki which has words in kanji on the front, so if I have trouble remebering (one of) the kanji I will review any mnemonic I have for it, possibly tweak it or make a new one if I feel it isn't working (I write memonics on the back of the card if it is troublesome so I can review the mnemonic too). Of course I fail the card so I will be re-reviewing soon, and the whole SRS process can do its thing.
To me, treating kanji as a separate problem would just make life more difficult and one's knowledge of the language more fragmented and less organic.
But that's just me.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - Roketzu - 2015-04-09
cophnia61 Wrote:Also, if I could ask Roketzu, you do or used to do vocabulary / sentences with Anki or do you rely only on reading (a la Steve Kaufmann)?I've been using Anki for years now, and I'm one of the seemingly few that enjoys using it! That said, I don't use Anki for learning vocabulary, rather I only add words if I feel I already know them to a certain extent. I use it as more of a long-term vocabulary retention tool, one that makes me aware of where my weaknesses are. I generally float around 96% accuracy any given month.
Thank you in advance!
This is an example of how a review would look for me:
(front) http://i.imgur.com/wQWInfC.png
(back) http://i.imgur.com/68w386q.png
The frequency rating at the top gives me an indicator of how lenient I can be. I'll be more strict with more common words. I always have some sentences with the word being used in context, because that's how words are encountered 'in the wild', and I always have the Japanese dictionary definition on the back side. I'd take a Japanese definition over an English one any day. I also have audio for almost every word, and pictures for those that I feel need it.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - CureDolly - 2015-04-09
Yes it is possible to mistake two similar kanji as you say. The thing to do there is to focus on their point of difference so that you will be aware of it in the future.
In the case you cite we have 各 (かく), "each, every" in both cases. In one case it is accompanied by 木 (き) tree and in the other by 糸 (いと) thread. If you want mnemonics, one can say "every thread tends to coil and entwine", "every tree in the forest has its own status and character".
If necessary (in rare cases when my mind was stubbornly confusing two kanji) I would even put a note on the back of the card not to confuse it with the other one and stating the difference.
PS
I am not sure how writing it would make much difference to the process, since in order to write the kanji, I am thinking "いと、ふゆ、くち" and "き、ふゆ、くち". The main difference writing brings to the process is that it focuses on the sub-elements since the process involves writing each one. I find it easier to remember them by larger chunks. Since we already know 各 as "every", why re-invent the wheel mnemonically?
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - mezbup - 2015-04-09
Here's my 2 cents on the subject:
I learned to write ~2000 kanji by doing RTK and learning to read them after that worked out pretty well. I then learned how to read a further 1000+ kanji just by Anki'ing vocab and never putting them through the heiseg method at all. That also worked out just fine. So... you can skip it, if you want.
A friend of mine learned to read Japanese through Anki'ing sentences and when I asked him "did you do RTK?" he stared at me with a blank expression. He had never even heard of it. Haha.
If I could do it all over again, I would probably skip writing them.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - cophnia61 - 2015-04-09
mh... those are all damn good points... thank you all for your help, I'll definitely rethink about my study method even if I'm still not sure about dropping the writing thing but yes, I'll try and see... also I hope your answers helped the op too!
Roketzu I like your format, with the big word on front and then the example sentences below it, did you do all the cards by yourself? I like particularly the multiple sentences, very useful to see words in context but at the same time to see the word by itself on the top of the card
Also I think you are right about not using Anki to learn vocabs but just with words you already know to maintain them in long term memory
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - Roketzu - 2015-04-09
cophnia61 Wrote:Roketzu I like your format, with the big word on front and then the example sentences below it, did you do all the cards by yourself? I like particularly the multiple sentences, very useful to see words in context but at the same time to see the word by itself on the top of the cardYeah I've created over 30k vocabulary notes just like this one. I never used any pre-built vocabulary deck. I use Rikaisama to import words along with the audio and English definition, then use 角川類語新辞典 to get the example sentence/Japanese definition. I mainly use this dictionary because the definitions are very succinct. I also use a modified version of the Japanese example sentences addon that strips away the English translations, just to have more examples available. The reason for all of this information being small is because I rarely need to look at it. It's mainly there for when I fail a card and need to learn it again, but sometimes I also need to see the word in context before remembering its meaning. This way all the information needed to re-learn it is available right on the card, and for words I'm comfortable with I just breeze through them upon seeing them in the large font.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - CureDolly - 2015-04-09
This may not be directly useful to those not using the method, but may provide some food for thought with other methods.
When using my audio sentences Anki method, I am reviewing "blind". That is, in most cases I don't look at a card at all unless I fail it, doing the whole thing by ear.
While doing this I often as well as knowing the sentence, the words and the grammar, ask myself if I know the kanji of any words I do not know very well. I can then look at the card to check if I need to. This isn't trying to write it or know every stroke. More a question of making sure I am familiar with it (in my mind's eye) to recognition level.
It isn't my main way of learning kanji, as that isn't the primary purpose of the audio sentences method but it does make for some extra reinforcement.
Will not writing the kanji affect my learning? - jimeux - 2015-04-09
I did RTK years ago and mostly reviewed writing the kanji with my finger and palm or just in my head, since I was doing it during my commute at that time. I ended up giving up the reviews at some point and never learned to actually write any real Japanese. It never really affected my reading skills, and like mezbup said, you'll learn to read hundreds of kanji that you can't write, or maybe even recognise outside of the words you learned them with (think of 顰蹙, 癇癪, 躊躇, 蹂躙, 痙攣 etc).
That said, since moving to Japan, I've been frustrated with my pitiful writing skills on a number of occasions, so I started going through a Core 8000 deck set up with the keyword highlighted in hiragana on the front, and the kanji stroke order font on the back. I've added the pitch accent codes and shadow the audio too, so it's been a good way to strengthen a few of my weak points simultaneously. There are occasional gems that I didn't know too, like 対になっている.
I've found that I remember the stroke order 99% of the time and my original RTK mnemonics maybe 70%, so it really feels like I'm just learning to write words from memory and not necessarily learning kanji. I've only got through 3000 words so far from Kanken levels 10-8 though (about 440 kanji). It has had some benefits for speaking and speeding up recognition during reading.
I guess the takeaway is that you don't need to write to become fluent in Japanese, although it may provide some advantages, and if you want to learn at some point, you'll still have a big head start.