+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Remembering the Kanji (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-7.html)
+--- Thread: Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices (/thread-12487.html)
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - emeelio - 2015-01-25
Yesterday I got to a section on the book where Heisig says to only write a kanji once and I had to stop to think about this as I had been writing kanji several times up until that point. He assures that in writing the character more than once will trigger the repetition learning pattern which it is not ideal—in another site I read three times is what's ideal.
When I agree with Heisig's method, he nor pretty much anyone following this method says, explains, or gives insight on not only learning the kanji but, also, learning how to write them properly (meaning not just getting the strokes right but learning how to write like a native, fluently, on paper with a pen or pencil).
Writing a kanji once means to me that one following Heisig's method is solely focusing on learning the kanji and not writing as doing it once will not help you to really grasp the dimensions of it: this takes practice. To me, since I want to learn to write like a native, this makes no sense and I need ideas on how to learn by Heisig's method and focusing on writing as well without wasting time neither.
What's the best advice to combine Heisig's method with learning how to write kanji properly—and avoid wasting time in the process? I am taking in consideration that writing also comes with practicing many kanji + hiragana + katakana over time and not just by writing one kanji 1000 times.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - Robik - 2015-01-25
I am on the same boat as you. When I read that passage in Heisig book, i was really surprised. I can't answer your question what method is best, but i will share mine.
For adding kanji in the Anki deck (or rather unsuspending) i read the kanji in book. Then, i check the card in deck for other stories and for stroke order. I write the kanji once and unsuspend it.
After i add enough kanji for the day. I take a pause and then i proceed to learn freshly added cards. If i think that i remember the kanji, i wrote it and check if it is correct. So i write each kanji at least twice here (first for 10 minute interval and second for 1 day interval) but more likely 3 or 4 times if i had to do card again.
When reviewing, i do the same. If i know the kanji (or i think i know it), i write it. If i am correct, that's it for the day. If i fail, i am writing the kanji once again when the card pops up again.
I find writing kanji relaxing, so i don't consider it waste of time and i do not mindlessly repeat one kanji several times, so it does not get boring.
Oh, and hello all *waves*.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - weatherman - 2015-01-25
I began by writing each kanji 5-10 times as I learned it, and it really didn't improve my writing or memorization of the characters at all. Once I switched to only writing each new character once, I remembered the kanji better in less time (because I was focusing on the stories) and was able to progress much faster (because I wasn't wasting time with rote memorization), which in turn allowed me to get started on real writing sooner. Real writing--like writing in a journal by hand--is what's really going to help your writing ability and active command of the characters, much more so than writing them in isolation over and over. It's also more interesting and will create more connections in your brain, enhancing your ability to learn. And to get started with real writing, you're really just going to need to be able to build each kanji slowly by knowing what its components are and where they go, which is what the RTK teaches you to do. Remember that Heisig posits the RTK as merely a foundation for future study that needs to be built as quickly as possible so that you can move on to other things. My advice would be to finish the whole foundation before you start laying down floorboard.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - TsugiAshi - 2015-01-25
I've always done this method: Every time I review a character in Anki, I write it down on paper while reciting the pieces that comprise the character. I review character to Keyword, though. Then afterward, I recite the keyword. And after that, I recite the entire story that ties everything together.
It takes longer to memorize individual characters that way, but when reviewing them over the long-term, I found it to be the most helpful, so the extra time spent seems fine to me. I've learned that for me the long-term repetition helps greatly, and the keyword-story helps to reinforce the repetition.
If my mind goes blank and I can't recall how to write a character out, as long as I remember the keyword and the story, I can recite the story in my mind which will guide me through (piece-by-piece) how to write the character out.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - liosama - 2015-01-25
When I was studying rtk, i'd practice characters I loved for pages on end. I practised writing many, making sure that I had the composition down pat. As the above poster mentioned, It was relaxing. I loved writing.
It didn't affect my recall rates, my story retention or anything like that. I had the same problems with bad kanji and bad stories. Ones that I did write pleny didn't feel as if they were rote learned. I always saw the story first along with the character. I think my deck was about 2 years old, and I was still getting all the really old ones. When I was at my peak I was always doing > 85-90% recall. The ones I had trouble with were genuinely bad stories and characters that I struggled with as everyone always does.
Before I dropped all study I think I got to about 1400 in RTK, and I was half way in RTH but was studying chinese so that meant lots and lots of practice writing sentences.
Were I to go through my anki deck now, i'd probably get less than 5% correct, but given that I haven't language stud in 5 years time I think that's forgivable!
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - emeelio - 2015-01-25
ありがとうございます！ All your answers are extremely helpful and have sparked ideas that I would like to implement. I believe that the first thing I am going to do is to create my own writing practice sheets as the ones out there are not aimed to people like us, trying to learn in an efficient way. For example, why settle with horizontal writing when we can also write vertically? In changing the orientation we can keep our brain challenged and not in auto-pilot. I also feel that practice sheets need to have more grid-less squares, at least for me. I will work on those and she them with you guys to see what you think.
When I want to learn to be good at writing on paper this will come over time. It is like learning to play the guitar: you can't master that first song you learned the first time but once you learn 25 songs and you come back to that first one suddenly it is easier to play and sounds a lot better.
One thing that no one said was to write hiragana and katakana along with kanji. When kanji could be used to write entire manuscripts, people in Japan write with these 3 systems. To master writing them all, together, and making it work smoothly is the ultimate goal for me.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - TsugiAshi - 2015-01-25
emeelio Wrote:ありがとうございます！ All your answers are extremely helpful and have sparked ideas that I would like to implement. I believe that the first thing I am going to do is to create my own writing practice sheets as the ones out there are not aimed to people like us, trying to learn in an efficient way. For example, why settle with horizontal writing when we can also write vertically? In changing the orientation we can keep our brain challenged and not in auto-pilot. I also feel that practice sheets need to have more grid-less squares, at least for me. I will work on those and she them with you guys to see what you think.I would actually recommend learning the kana prior to starting kanji. There's another book by Heisig called Remembering the Kana. It's really good, imo, and sets the stage for learning the more complex and lengthy RTK.
When I want to learn to be good at writing on paper this will come over time. It is like learning to play the guitar: you can't master that first song you learned the first time but once you learn 25 songs and you come back to that first one suddenly it is easier to play and sounds a lot better.
One thing that no one said was to write hiragana and katakana along with kanji. When kanji could be used to write entire manuscripts, people in Japan write with these 3 systems. To master writing them all, together, and making it work smoothly is the ultimate goal for me.
Personally, learning kana first helped me break into understanding basic Japanese in general, as the kana are lighter, easier, and simpler "pieces" of kanji.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - liosama - 2015-01-26
i agree with tsugi
Emeelio: I strongly recommend this site for stroke order/general writing style
http://www.yamasa.org/ocjs/kanjidic.nsf/SortedByKanji2THEnglish/%E8%AA%9E?OpenDocument
i shadowed the shit out of this site. Not sure what you guys are all using these days what with iphones and all that jazz, but I loved this site.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - emeelio - 2015-01-26
TsugiAshi Wrote:I would actually recommend learning the kana prior to starting kanji.I already do: that's how I started.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - emeelio - 2015-01-26
liosama Wrote:I strongly recommend this site for stroke order/general writing style http://www.yamasa.org/ocjs/kanjidic.nsf/SortedByKanji2THEnglish/%E8%AA%9E?OpenDocumentThank you very much.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - jimeux - 2015-01-26
Muscle memory is really important for writing fluidly, and I don't think there's any doubt that you need to repetitively write out characters until you can do so quickly and legibly. There's also no doubt that you need to know how to read kanji, but it makes more sense to start that process after finishing RTK.
RTK gives you a "mental index" of kanji that allows you to approach vocab much more easily. I think anything that slows down completing that index is a waste of time for now. I also think that thinking about kanji in isolation too much is a bad idea. Some kanji literally only appear in a word or two with another kanji. Writing out words when you start something like Core 6k will give you a lot more benefits going forward, and I feel is a much more efficient way of achieving your aims.
Also, if you're not already using it in your deck, check out the kanji stroke order font.
Learn Kanji While Focusing on Writing Skills ~ Best Practices - emeelio - 2015-01-31
jimeux Wrote:Muscle memory is really important for writing fluidly, and I don't think there's any doubt that you need to repetitively write out characters until you can do so quickly and legibly. There's also no doubt that you need to know how to read kanji, but it makes more sense to start that process after finishing RTK.Thank you for your advice. I am adjusting to reduce the amount of repetitions to only half of what my current practice sheet has you do—18 instead of 36. This way I am spending half the time. I am also writing only the first row of the kanji first, 5 per per page, and then going back to write the second row so instead of doing AA, BB, CC, DD, EE I do A, B, C, D, E, A, B, C, D, E. My brain does not go on auto-pilot and things just seem to stick better.
RTK gives you a "mental index" of kanji that allows you to approach vocab much more easily. I think anything that slows down completing that index is a waste of time for now. I also think that thinking about kanji in isolation too much is a bad idea. Some kanji literally only appear in a word or two with another kanji. Writing out words when you start something like Core 6k will give you a lot more benefits going forward, and I feel is a much more efficient way of achieving your aims.
Also, if you're not already using it in your deck, check out the kanji stroke order font.