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+--- Thread: modifying keywords (/thread-12432.html)
modifying keywords - ariariari - 2015-01-04
I use anki for my reviews and just "failed" the keyword "all" because I wrote 全 instead of 皆.
I write "failed" with quotes because, well, according to jisho.org the first meaning of 全 is also "all". So while I could argue with anki that I was right, or take great pains to memorize which kanji Heisig chose for an ambiguous definition, both options seem like a not good use of my time.
I think it's best to start modifying my cards when things like this come up. For example, I just modified the keyword for 皆 to read "all (minna-san)". I should point out that (like I imagine most lower-intermediate students) I have no trouble keeping these kanji straight when writing or reading.
I'm curious if other people have done this, and what their experience was.
The biggest risk I see is that if I go too crazy with the renaming (for example, dropping the keyword "all" from the card altogether) I might get in trouble later if it appears as a primitive in another card.
Thanks.
modifying keywords - Sauzer - 2015-01-04
Yes, I had the same issue. I started using a second field on the question side of the card that had a word or two that used the keyword (obviously with all or part in kana) so as to disambiguate those kinds of cards.
modifying keywords - john555 - 2015-01-04
I finished RTK1 a while back, and I still use the keywords in order to work with the kanji as I read and learn compounds.
In my MS Access database I have a table set up so that if I input the Heisig keyword the desired kanji pops up in the desired field.
The Heisig keywords for me are a useful naming device. If I'm thinking of compound X, I might think to myself "it's made up of keyword a + keyword b".
So I need to refer to the first kanji in your post as "whole" and the second one as "all".
modifying keywords - ariariari - 2015-01-04
Thanks guys.
@sauzer that's a good idea - it might benefit me to add it as a separate field, so I can leave the existing field as-is. As you learn more of them, and the intervals creep up, it seems like a somewhat senseless piece of baggage to carry around, and a silly reason to fail a card.
Another example comes to mind: "sea" vs. "ocean". The two words mean the same thing for me in English, so when I see them I can't remember which one he wants. But for whatever reason I learned 海（うみ）very early on and putting the kana on the front would help me not fail the card for the silly reason that I'm unsure whether anki wants that character or 洋.
modifying keywords - Inny Jan - 2015-01-05
Re: sea vs. ocean
I guess, in colloquial English they are used with same meaning but there are only five oceans on Earth:
Pacific, Atlantic, Indian, Arctic, Southern.
Any other non-inland waters are seas, like: Caspian, Baltic, Red, Black, Dead, etc.
Maybe it's a matter of different upbringing but to me ocean is so different from sea that there is no chance for me to take one for the other.
Re: keywords disambiguation
Anything goes when it comes to disambiguating related keywords. Personally, I use (in various combinations):
- kana,
- sound of the Japanese word,
- narrowing the meaning (eg. instead of just a keyword "concept", I use "concept (of love)") ,
- if the kanji has various primitive meanings, I include those meanings in the question (eg. heart (valentine, state of mind)) ,
- for words that I'm not too familiar with in English, I use my FL translations (eg. wither (więdnąć))
modifying keywords - SomeCallMeChris - 2015-01-05
I never really used kana hints when I was doing English keywords, although for obvious reasons my questions are purely kana as I'm transforming my deck into Japanese keywords. If you know a word spelled with the kana in Japanese, I don't see any reason not to simply change to a Japanese keyword right away.
If you -don't- know such a word already, go ahead and change to another English keyword. It doesn't really matter what the keyword is as long as it meets two criteria:
- it is memorable for you and easily distinguished from similar keywords
- it isn't a keyword that will show up later in RTK
Notice that I don't say the keyword has to closely match the meaning of the kanji. (I don't really believe that kanji have a meaning, outside of a few dozen simple pictographs like 日、木、火、人, etc. ; compound kanji like 議, 然, etc. take their meaning purely from the words they are used to spell and don't really have an innate 'meaning'. They may have had an innate meaning in ancient Chinese, but after many adaptations and transformations, that's only of interest to people obsessed with etymology).
It's a bonus if they keyword matches a common word the kanji is used to spell (especially kun reading words where the character in question is the only kanji in the word). It's not really needed though - it's just a mental tag to hang on the kanji. Just as you can remember that 然 is drawn with moon-little dog-fire, you could remember that 確実 was spelled with granite+watermelon if you wanted to use those keywords instead of the ones Heisig gives.
You might need a second level mnemonic to associate your keyword with a given Japanese word, but any terrible throw-away mnemonic to let your read the word for a couple days before you forget it will cover that gap. (for my strange example, a block of granite is *certain* to smash any watermelon you drop it on ... a granite watermelon will *certainly* break your teeth if you try to eat it. etc. I make up terrible mnemonics like this all the time, or even stranger cross-language mnemonics mixing and matching English and Japanese sound-alikes to pin readings to kanji. That I forget them within a few days is irrelevant if it lets me read the word for that few days and pin it into my memory to become just a word that I know.)
tl/dr, -- change keywords all you like, as you like, just check the index of keywords to make sure you don't conflict with a future keyword.
edit: as far as future re-use as a primitive, you do want to keep a written list of keywords you have changed so that you can make sure that you stick to your keyword, but as long as you don't lose track it's not a real problem. You will have to make up your own stories, of course, when you diverge.
modifying keywords - overture2112 - 2015-01-05
I have a similar issue. I basically never actually forget a recall, but other heisig keywords or vocab I've learned causes interference and so I think of the wrong kanji or consider 2-3 different kanji that it might refer to.
What I personally did was keep the keyword but add a parenthetical hint that doesn't tell me any components, but rather 1 or 2 it doesn't have (ie. it's an anti-interference hint) or provide the reading from a word I know that uses it.
Ex: "princess" makes one think of both 媛 ("beautiful woman") and 姫 ("princess"). I would consider changing the "princess" keyword to add the reading like "princess (ひめ)", but 媛 uses the same reading, so I would use the other method and make it "princess (no ducks)".
modifying keywords - KameDemaK - 2015-01-08
TIP: I sometimes modify keywords. To make sure I avoid overlaps, I use this site: http://www.ziggr.com/heisig/ I hit Ctrl + F in Firefox (a simple search) and type in the new keyword I want to give. If it's free, great, assign the new keyword. If the keyword is "taken", the search will show you which kanji number that keyword belongs to. Then I decide whether to change that keyword too or if it's better to leave the original keywords. WARNING: The list only includes RTK1 Kanjis and primitive names are not included.
modifying keywords - Vempele - 2015-01-08
KameDemaK Wrote:WARNING: The list only includes RTK1 Kanjis and primitive names are not included.Pre-6th edition RTK1+3 keywords: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/heisigwords.html
modifying keywords - john555 - 2015-01-08
Vempele Wrote:Unfortunately he didn't provide the Heisig kanji numbers which are also useful.KameDemaK Wrote:WARNING: The list only includes RTK1 Kanjis and primitive names are not included.Pre-6th edition RTK1+3 keywords: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/heisigwords.html
modifying keywords - shinsen - 2015-01-08
1. I write the reading, especially where I already know the word
皆 all みんな
2. Here is a really good trick. I disambiguate right in the keyword by adding "not x":
敗 failure (not 'defeat')
餓 starve (not 'hungry')
3. I adjust keywords with extra words to disambiguate the English meaning, for example "差 distinction" becomes:
差 distinction between
to make sure it has the connotation of "difference" and not "excellence".
"削 plane" becomes:
削 to plane (sharpen, shave off)
4. I adjust the keyword to a phrase (almost a mini-story) that conveys the exact image, for example 忍 "endure" becomes:
忍 to endure like a ninja
5. If I don't like the original keyword, I don't hesitate to change it completely by looking up the kanji and usage examples (remembering to check for conflicts with other keywords):
"宵 wee hours" becomes
宵 twilight
And so on. In other words, you can do whatever you want. It all works very well. It's been said many times - Heisig's keywords are not gospel.
modifying keywords - KameDemaK - 2015-01-09
john555 Wrote:That's true, the kanji numbers are essential to be able to browse to the kanji directly in this site. However, if you use Rikaichan, you can highlight the kanji and it will also tell you which number it is in Heisig's list. =) It also shows the kanjis correctly, my previous list does not show the kanjis well (I don't know if it's just me). So combining this list with Rikaichan, there's no point in using the one I previously posted. Thanks Vempele! =) (It is still not perfect because it does not list Heisig's non-kanji primitives).Vempele Wrote:Unfortunately he didn't provide the Heisig kanji numbers which are also useful.KameDemaK Wrote:WARNING: The list only includes RTK1 Kanjis and primitive names are not included.Pre-6th edition RTK1+3 keywords: http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/heisigwords.html
Those are some nice techniques, shinsen. I definitely feel that adding the "to" in some verbs clarifies some meanings. I understand Heisig wanting to use one word for the keyword for simplicity, but the moment he uses several words in some kanji he contradicts his own approach I believe.
modifying keywords - ariariari - 2015-01-10
Thanks for all your advice guys. I'm now going to start feeling much freer to modify the front.
As an update, I just failed "before" because I wrote 前 instead of 先. Of course, I went straight to jisho.org to see if what I wrote was valid and - you guessed it - the first definition of 前 is "before".
That card now reads "before (せん in せんせい)". Hopefully this helps me with this problem.
modifying keywords - KameDemaK - 2015-01-11
ariariari Wrote:Thanks for all your advice guys. I'm now going to start feeling much freer to modify the front.I think the advice that someone gave for that Kanji here in Koohii is great: think of "before" as "beefore" and the pun should help you remember that it's the Kanji with the cow radical (beef - cow).
As an update, I just failed "before" because I wrote 前 instead of 先. Of course, I went straight to jisho.org to see if what I wrote was valid and - you guessed it - the first definition of 前 is "before".
That card now reads "before (せん in せんせい)". Hopefully this helps me with this problem.