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College or working in Japan as an adult - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-12-14
So I'm in a somewhat unique situation. I dropped out of college many (20+) years ago. Since then I've managed to work my way into advanced and well compensated positions in the tech industry. My youngest child will be off to college or a similar pursuit in seven years, and I would love to pursue some sort of opportunity that allows me to spend several years in the country.
Some questions:
(1) I've heard that it's hard to get a job in Japan without a degree. Is this true even if you have equivalent work experience and a solid resume? I have a solid technical skill set that spans a lot of technologies and programming languages, and have worked for a number of Fortune 500 companies; I wouldn't be going there to teach English. (Not that there's anything *wrong* with that.)
(2) Anyone have any experience obtaining a degree in Japan as an adult? It would be nice, once money is less of an issue, to get my degree and pursue some research related to Japan. Is this harder to to as an adult? Is the admission process any more complicated? Are any scholarships available for people outside of the normal college age range?
Any insights anyone can provide would be appreciated.
College or working in Japan as an adult - ktcgx - 2014-12-14
You cannot get a work permit without a degree (aside from the working holiday visa, not available to Americans, iirc). Unless you're there on a spousal visa (iirc). So if you want to work in Japan, you need a degree. Given that you're thinking 7 years into the future, you do, I believe, definitely have the time to complete one part-time before your child heads to university.
College or working in Japan as an adult - hyvel - 2014-12-14
1)
ktcgx Wrote:You cannot get a work permit without a degree (aside from the working holiday visa, not available to Americans, iirc).I think you are mistaken:
http://www.juridique.jp Wrote:Engineer: Degree in the corresponding field or 10 years professional experience
http://www.japan-guide.com Wrote:A university degree or considerable professional experience in the applicable field is required to qualify for a working visa.I guess that one of the reasons why people believe that you can hardly circumvent the college degree requirement is that most people we have around message boards like this one are still students lacking the considerable work experience quoted above. For them, a college degree is almost required.
However, I don't really know how immigration actually handles applications in reality (maybe they unofficially almost require a college degree?).
2)
Can't really help you out too much on this one, but I'd guess that it is very unusual. As it strongly deviates from the usual path and Japan tends to be quite rigid wrt to following the 'right', usual path, I'd be very surprised to hear of programs crafted to accommodate your needs. I mean you won't be a silly, young student that has to be babysat anymore, but already have considerable skills. But maybe somebody else can shed some more light on this.
College or working in Japan as an adult - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-12-14
Thanks to you both. Looks like hyvel is right from what I can tell. I'm still weighing my options. Part of me would be fine working in my current field in Japan. But I think I'd really like to get my degree in Asian Studies so that, as I approach my 50s, I can begin shifting more into research and academia.
On that score, I think ktcgx has the right idea - I have plenty of time to begin pursuing my degree here. And plenty of opportunity, given that University of Washington is in my backyard, and appears to have an excellent Japan Studies program.
College or working in Japan as an adult - ktcgx - 2014-12-14
Yes, you're right hyvel, and it's true, I am young enough that I would totally ignore the 10 years' experience part. Sorry!
If you're going into academia, gaia, I'm pretty sure that Australian universities still have zero tuition fees for research degrees in Masters or above, so that could be something worth looking into, also, for your future down the track.
College or working in Japan as an adult - vix86 - 2014-12-15
gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:So I'm in a somewhat unique situation. I dropped out of college many (20+) years ago. Since then I've managed to work my way into advanced and well compensated positions in the tech industry. My youngest child will be off to college or a similar pursuit in seven years, and I would love to pursue some sort of opportunity that allows me to spend several years in the country.1) You are in a very good place to get a job in Japan. If you can work in some "vacation" to Japan where you could spend 3 weeks - month in Japan; here is what I would do. First, sign up for daijob.com, I'd do that now regardless of when you can get over there. Second, set up your account and create both an English resume and Japanese resume. Third, send off your resume to all of the major recruiting agencies that are listed on Daijob. (EDIT: https://www.daijob.com/en/jobs/agentlist heres where you do it I believe, you can also just apply to any jobs you like)
Some questions:
(1) I've heard that it's hard to get a job in Japan without a degree. Is this true even if you have equivalent work experience and a solid resume? I have a solid technical skill set that spans a lot of technologies and programming languages, and have worked for a number of Fortune 500 companies; I wouldn't be going there to teach English. (Not that there's anything *wrong* with that.)
(2) Anyone have any experience obtaining a degree in Japan as an adult? It would be nice, once money is less of an issue, to get my degree and pursue some research related to Japan. Is this harder to to as an adult? Is the admission process any more complicated? Are any scholarships available for people outside of the normal college age range?
Any insights anyone can provide would be appreciated.
The third one is something you might want to do a few weeks before you go on "vacation." This way you can correspond with the recruiters and work up some interview time schedules. I've heard of people with 10-15 years of IT experience getting hits from their resumes immediately, and having interviews ready when they landed in Japan for a few weeks. With your 20 years of experience I don't think you have to worry about getting a position but I think you might have to worry about getting a position that meets the expectations you had in the US. The pay scales in Japan vary greatly compared to the US. Also, don't ignore the international companies either: Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc; the pay is decent there.
2) If you have a nice cushion of money to work with while in school then doing college in Japan isn't difficult. College in Japan is actually cheaper than in the US honestly. Its been many months since I last looked at tuition but most school tuition is about ~$5,000 a year for full time (plus an extra 1k usually when you first start for fees).
The only thing you will have to watch for though honestly is the entrance exams. Depending on the university you try to enter, you could be exempt from them if you are entering on an international student track. Other schools would still expect you to take the exams. IN place of exams you'd probably replace it with SATs/GREs.
Which brings me to another point. You said you dropped out of college which I can only assume means that you dropped out during your 4 year education. I can't speak with any certainty on this matter, but considering how Japan is a "by the book" country, this might mean you would have to complete your 4 year before you could move into a masters degree. In the US they might look past the lack of a degree and look at your time in the industry and let you just waive the bachelors, though I'm not sure. Japan might let you waive the bachelors degree but they may only let you do it in a field related to your work experience. These are all questions you should email university admission offices about in Japan. Just search around for the section for international student admissions and tell them your situation and ask whether you would have to do the 4 year or if you could your masters (assuming you were hoping to skip the bachelors part). I don't believe any college would turn you away because of your age, but you would most definitely stick out in undergrad classes in Japan.
Scholarships don't really exist for you due to your age unfortunately.
College or working in Japan as an adult - Danchan - 2014-12-15
Not that there's anything wrong with that!
College or working in Japan as an adult - rtkrtk - 2014-12-18
gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:(2) Anyone have any experience obtaining a degree in Japan as an adult? It would be nice, once money is less of an issue, to get my degree and pursue some research related to Japan. Is this harder to to as an adult?Do some serious soul searching and ask yourself if you're really ready to throw away your status and pride and live like a student again at the bottom rung of the ladder in a hierarchical university system in a foreign country. I did it (getting a technical Ph.D. in Japan at a major university, about 3 years working full time and doing the Ph.D. on the side, and about 3 years dedicated to the Ph.D. only). It wasn't easy. Only you can know if you will be able to do it. I will offer some difficulties from my experience, but you should definitely talk with other foreigners who have gone through the Japanese university system.
As a professional you get used to talking with people with respect and being treated with respect. But as a student in the old-fashioned, hierarchical Japanese university system, you will be talked down to with an attitude of "you should be thankful I am bothering to listen to your request", and you will generally be forced to conform to the system even if it goes against your principles. Can you do that? Here are some examples off the top of my head:
* being required to sign a consent form (that may in fact be illegal) that if you quit the university, the university is authorised to forward all of your personal information to the government to make sure you don't overstay your visa. This is supposedly a "voluntary" consent form except if you don't sign it you can't continue your studies.
* being given a hassle if you want to pay your tuition in cash instead of having it automatically withdrawn from your bank account.
* being expected to sacrifice your Friday nights to participate in some mandatory weekly "party" that is actually nothing more than a meeting (where some snacks happen to be served) with the same students and lab partners that you are already spending all day with anyway. As a working professional I tended to want to spend my Friday nights for myself rather than spending yet more time with my lab group and wasting my Friday night talking yet again about research instead of having some time off.
* being expected to join the yearly laboratory field trip, where all of the students sleep in one huge tatami room on the floor, packed into the room like sardines in a can, while the professors and staff have their own separate rooms to relax in at night.
* being expected to clean the laboratory and take out the trash in a rotation system with the other students, while the non-student lab members (secretaries, staff, post-docs, assistant professors, and professors) don't lift a finger.
* being talked down to by your professor even when you know more about your subject than your professor (e.g. researching a topic that is slightly outside the professor's domain). After all, the professor is right, no matter what, and must always criticise to maintain the air of superiority necessary to preserve the hierarchical professor-student relationship.
This is just my experience getting a technical Ph.D. in Japan. It may be different for other fields of study or at the undergraduate level. But I expect that there will be at least some degree of adjustment necessary to get used to having no social standing and no expectation of courtesy or respect when dealing with your superiors.
その上、日本語で生活できますでしょうか？申請書を日本語で書くことや口頭で係員さんとやりとりすること等、構いませんでしょうか？
gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:But I think I'd really like to get my degree in Asian Studies so that, as I approach my 50s, I can begin shifting more into research and academia.Do you have any experience working in research and academia? I do. It may not be as appealing as it looks from the outside. There is a lot of internal politics, backstabbing, nepotism, and unethical behavior. Just read up about Obokata and STAP for an example of the systemic problems that exist.
I hope I don't sound like a wet blanket, and if you really want to pursue university studies and academic work in Japan, go for it. Just be sure you know what you're getting into and are ready for the long uphill battle.
College or working in Japan as an adult - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-12-18
vix86 Wrote:Also, don't ignore the international companies either: Google, Microsoft, Apple, etc; the pay is decent there.I currently work for one of those, and we even have a portion of our team in Meguro. (My division delivers worldwide technical training, and we have a delivery team in Japan that uses localized versions of the content that I and my colleagues create.) I plan to work there for a couple weeks in April.
A transfer within the company to our Japan subsidiary would actually be ideal, and would probably be the easiest way to transition to living in the country.
vix86 Wrote:In the US they might look past the lack of a degree and look at your time in the industry and let you just waive the bachelors, though I'm not sure. Japan might let you waive the bachelors degree but they may only let you do it in a field related to your work experience.Not the case here, sadly. I'll be able to test out of a few things, but I'll still need to take a load of classes to earn by Bachelor's.
Thanks for the really detailed feedback, btw - very helpful. I think I'll pursue my degree in the states while continuing to study Japanese, and will keep an eye out on work opportunities over the next few years that provide me an excuse to visit the country for work, with an eye to transitioning into a job within Japan itself once my kids are off to school.
College or working in Japan as an adult - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-12-18
rtkrtk Wrote:Do you have any experience working in research and academia? I do. It may not be as appealing as it looks from the outside. There is a lot of internal politics, backstabbing, nepotism, and unethical behavior. Just read up about Obokata and STAP for an example of the systemic problems that exist.Yeah, I've been reading about that for months. Very ugly.
The rest of what you have to say is...well, absolutely horrifying, to be honest. But sobering. It sounds like pursuing my degree in the states is definitely the path of least resistance.
College or working in Japan as an adult - vix86 - 2014-12-18
gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:A transfer within the company to our Japan subsidiary would actually be ideal, and would probably be the easiest way to transition to living in the country.This is the easier option I think and might provide you some leverage for maintaining a similar salary when you transfer, which is bound to be higher than what you'd be getting quitting and getting a new job somewhere in Japan.
College or working in Japan as an adult - Arupan - 2014-12-18
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College or working in Japan as an adult - Zgarbas - 2014-12-19
Things that my postdoc friend in technical also has to go through:
Not sure about the visa thing. I don't really see that big of a problem with it so *shrug*
No idea how you pay tuition.
The mandatory meeting is Tuesday. lately they started having parties since they got a new head, but he likes them; they take place in izakayas.
Their yearly lab trip wasn't overnight.
He has to help clean. Everybody cleans. Students, profs, postdocs... Being a Nobel-winning school with $6-10k tuition/year does not exempt them from being too cheap to hire someone to clean the inside of the buildings =(
He just got really unlucky to land in the lab of a prof who is way too much into politics and traditional values, and who is retiring soon so he doesn't really care anymore. Luck is a strong factor. Crazy strong.Expectations and previous experience are also strong factors. Even within the same dept we have such different experiences it's crazy.
Non-technical field normal student input:
The amount that you get talked down to varies a lot. He has a very traditional professor who mostly just ignores him, but his new head is much more understanding. Some of my profs are total sweethearts who would never talk down to me, but I had this one prof bring me to tears within the first class and encourage me to drop it since it's "obvious that my Japanese isn't good enough to keep up". I later found out from my Chinese colleagues that he does that to all non-Japanese students, regardless of level. For the record, he did that because I was hesitating in answers to questions such as "what is the opposite of Humanism", and he was quick to assume that my hesitation was due to my not understanding the Japanese (I did; the material was just so weird that I was wondering if I'd stumbled into the wrong class). Then again, even the worst of them are still a step up from my profs back in Romania.
My dept has a special admission system set up for 社会人. We have a few mature students, both Japanese and foreign, but tbh I've not interacted with them much.
College or working in Japan as an adult - vix86 - 2014-12-19
While it doesn't guarantee the advisor won't be into politics or a complete bitch to deal with; one way to help locate better professors is look for those that did their masters or doctorate overseas in a western country.
College or working in Japan as an adult - rtkrtk - 2014-12-19
Zgarbas Wrote:Things that my postdoc friend in technical also has to go through:Very interesting to read about and compare your experiences. Some additional comments:
Zgarbas Wrote:Not sure about the visa thing. I don't really see that big of a problem with it so *shrug*The "mandatory voluntary release of private information form" I was forced to sign came at a time when Japan news was buzzing with talk about how, due to a new law, Japan was properly protecting personal information (個人情報) from abuse and leaking by companies. So I found it extremely hypocritical that while Japanese news was making empty claims about protecting personal information, at the same time I was forced to sign a mandatory but "voluntary" release of my personal information in the event I quit the university. I think this is illegal. If it's legal for them to release my information, then why do I need to sign the release form? If it's not legal for them to release my information, then is it legal for them to require me to sign this form as a condition of continuing my studies? There was a notice attached to the form, written in the typical stilted English of a Japanese speaker, saying something along the lines of "we have received many complaints from you foreign students about being required to sign this form. We ask for your understanding and cooperation." So, you have a choice: stick to your principle, refuse to sign, and possibly forfeit your studies (even though you've already paid an arm and a leg in tuition); or, give up your principle, sign the paper, and sarcastically laugh as the Japanese news continues to trumpet how safe and secure your 個人情報 is thanks to the wonderful new laws.
Zgarbas Wrote:He just got really unlucky to land in the lab of a prof who is way too much into politics and traditional values, and who is retiring soon so he doesn't really care anymore. Luck is a strong factor. Crazy strong.Expectations and previous experience are also strong factors. Even within the same dept we have such different experiences it's crazy.I'll agree with that. Some other professors in my department seemed to be mild-mannered and easy-going, judging from their demeanor and also from reports from other students.
Zgarbas Wrote:Non-technical field normal student input:My professor openly stated that he admires professors who grill their students to the point of tears. "That is the hallmark of a good professor," he said.
[...]
Some of my profs are total sweethearts who would never talk down to me, but I had this one prof bring me to tears within the first class and encourage me to drop it since it's "obvious that my Japanese isn't good enough to keep up".
I suppose from some point of view it makes sense. For people who plan a career as a high-profile principal investigator, your work will be subject to intense scrutiny. I guess my professor's philosophy is that the professor must harden up the students to withstand the even intenser pressure on the international stage. The only problem with that point of view is that not all Ph.D.'s end up working in academia. In fact, I read that a significant percentage of them (like me) leave academia altogether.
I know a number of Master's and Ph.D. students in my lab who couldn't take it and quit mid-way. I can sympathise with that. After finally somehow finishing my Ph.D., I realised that by pouring so much of my life energy over a six-year span into that project, in the end I had sacrificed some other very important things that I will never get back. Was it worth it? I sometimes wonder. I probably still will, 20 years from now.
This comic poignantly puts a fine point on it:
![[Image: phd082803s.gif]](http://blog.devicerandom.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/phd082803s.gif)
Completing the graduate degree is hard enough by itself; doubly so when it's done in a foreign language and environment.
Zgarbas Wrote:My dept has a special admission system set up for 社会人. We have a few mature students, both Japanese and foreign, but tbh I've not interacted with them much.As a 社会人ドクター candidate you generally come into the lab, make your presentation, field some questions from the profs and students, then leave. That's not so bad. However if you transition from 社会人 back to normal full-time doctoral student, your social standing drops greatly and, in the event of injustices great or small, you suddenly have no power to push back as a 社会人 because you are just a 学生.
College or working in Japan as an adult - rtkrtk - 2014-12-21
gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:But I think I'd really like to get my degree in Asian Studies so that, as I approach my 50s, I can begin shifting more into research and academia.Not to beat a dead horse, but I found this blog post on the realities of working in research and academia:
http://blog.devicerandom.org/2011/02/18/getting-a-life/
I've read lots of similar blogs from other ex-academics, and they all say the same thing: to succeed at science you have to have a huge ego, be obnoxiously sure that you are right, be fiercely competitive, and be able to thrive in the ruthless political environment. To quote from the above blog: "So basically, if you are not cut for this kind of life, your chances are zero. I tried, believe me. I tried hard."
Personally, I worked in industry for 10 years, then due to a chance meeting at a conference I met a guy who ended up offering me a research position. I jumped at the opportunity thinking I would love it, with the naive image of total freedom and unlimited resources to explore interesting questions. Then reality hit home. I worked in research in and out of the university for 5 years, and now I've been back in industry again for several years.
If you're not earning your living doing your research (i.e. your livelihood will not be affected if you fail as a researcher/academic) then it might be fun and rewarding to move into academia or research to satisfy your innate scientific curiosity. But choosing to do research for a living, where your paycheck is on the line, is a much riskier proposition.
College or working in Japan as an adult - vix86 - 2014-12-21
STEM fields vs Humanities fields are a bit different I think; though I do believe they still rely on a great deal of egoism for anyone involved. Asian studies isn't a STEM field, but I imagine you would need a great deal of egoism if you plan to pursue such a field in Asia. I'd imagine you'd be brushing up against natives who believe because they are born and lived there that their view on things is more valid than someone who didn't.
I never mentioned it above though, but I think getting a doctorate after 50 and hoping to turn it into a career might be incredibly difficult if not impossible. Getting the degree isn't difficult but there is a lot of time invested into getting to a point where it can be a career. Academia these days seems to require 1-2 post-docs before you even get a professorship and then I believe there is a certain amount of time that has to go by before you even get a chance at an assistant professor position. Tenured positions have gone the way of the DoDo too. You really have to love academia in your field in order to continue on with it.
College or working in Japan as an adult - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-12-21
Thanks to everyone for the feedback and the reality checks. It's given me a lot to think about! I'll likely still pursue my degree, but am leaning more toward finding ways to use it in my current field. To be honest, I find the idea of starting from zero unappealing.
College or working in Japan as an adult - dizmox - 2014-12-22
If your goal is to stay in Japan long term don't rush and just finish getting a bachelor's in the USA asap. Doing it in Japan would just be a waste of time tbh. Hardly anyone learns much at all in university here (I don't think I benefited much from grad school myself..)
There's far better selection of courses available in the west that will benefit you more later on life and learning Japanese can be done outside of the university.
College or working in Japan as an adult - hyvel - 2014-12-23
@gaiaslastlaugh:
Maybe this is a bit offensive, but can you elaborate what you expect to get out of your degree [in Asian studies(?)]? I just can't imagine a whole lot of scenarios where that would be very helpful, or even required for you, so it'd be interesting to hear your motivation. Hopefully this doesn't sound too rude.
@dizmox, off-topic:
I've meant to contact you for quite some time after reading some of your posts here regarding sharing experiences, as our background seems to be somewhat similar. Unfortunately your profile has no contact info whatsoever, so I can only resort to stalking your posts :/.
College or working in Japan as an adult - john555 - 2014-12-23
The other bad thing about academia is there is a lot of intellectual bias (at least in the US) college campuses, e.g., not allowing pro-life groups to speak, yet claiming to support "freedom of speech."
College or working in Japan as an adult - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-12-23
hyvel Wrote:@gaiaslastlaugh:Beyond just wanting the degree and being interested in the subject, there are a number of PM and other tech roles in the industry that involve interacting with Japanese employees and partners where having a degree in Asian Studies + a solid JLPT score are a requirement.
Maybe this is a bit offensive, but can you elaborate what you expect to get out of your degree [in Asian studies(?)]? I just can't imagine a whole lot of scenarios where that would be very helpful, or even required for you, so it'd be interesting to hear your motivation. Hopefully this doesn't sound too rude.
No offense taken; I've been going back and forth on whether the degree is strictly necessary myself, or whether I could get my foot in the door for such a position just with a solid knowledge of Japanese. I've managed to land enough jobs in the past where a BS in CompSci was supposedly a "strict requirement".
College or working in Japan as an adult - vix86 - 2014-12-23
I'm even more confused now about an Asian Studies degree. I thought the plan was to move out of tech completely but from the sounds of it it doesn't, which makes the Asian Studies degree even bizarre. I think you should really take a very close look at what Asian Studies entail, look at the course catalogs at some schools and see what classes you need to take to complete the degree. If you haven't done this, do it, and then decide if it doesn't seem bizarre.
I'm going to go out on a limb and say that an International Business degree with a focus in East Asia would probably be far more logical, especially if your aim is to move into a more managerial position in your current career. You'll get a good deal of exposure to the same classes you would in Asian Studies but you wouldn't be loaded down with a lot of classes that wouldn't be aimed at what you would be doing.
Japanese skill can always be acquired else where and it surely doesn't require an Asian Studies degree to accomplish an N1.
College or working in Japan as an adult - rtkrtk - 2014-12-23
gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:Beyond just wanting the degree and being interested in the subject, there are a number of PM and other tech roles in the industry that involve interacting with Japanese employees and partners where having a degree in Asian Studies + a solid JLPT score are a requirement.If you're good at what you do, and good at Japanese, I expect you'll be fine at finding jobs, inside or outside Japan, where interaction with Japanese employees and partners is needed. Personally I don't think an Asian Studies degree is needed for this. The language skills and job skills should be enough. Business etiquette/skills are another matter. If you can somehow get a good position in a Japanese company with Japanese colleagues, you should quickly be able to pick up on the business skills (stuff like long overtime, going to nomikais, using phrases like お手数げすが, etc.).
No offense taken; I've been going back and forth on whether the degree is strictly necessary myself, or whether I could get my foot in the door for such a position just with a solid knowledge of Japanese. I've managed to land enough jobs in the past where a BS in CompSci was supposedly a "strict requirement".
One possible path, if you're looking for tech and/or PM roles in the Japanese language, is to join a Japanese startup company run by Japanese people who are willing to accept foreign workers. I think there are several such companies in IT (though they might not be willing to sponsor your visa; it's much easier for the company if you already have a visa, like a spouse visa, that allows you to work). Obviously it's a huge risk for you should the venture fail, but in any event it will be work that you can list on the resume, and a startup environment is more laid back than the rigid hierarchical system of larger, older Japanese companies. In addition to the on-the-job language skills you would pick up, in a small startup you will likely also have the opportunity to interact directly with customers where you can practice your keigo and customer service skills (名刺交換等).
-----
Rereading this thread, I see that the "transfer to the Japanese subsidiary" route was mentioned. This would probably be the best, giving you a stable position from which to interact with your Japanese colleagues and customers. They might all want to speak English with you though.