Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Printable Version

+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: The Japanese language (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-10.html)
+--- Thread: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji (/thread-12383.html)

Pages: 1 2 3

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - DrJones - 2014-12-19

爪＋臼 is also the original version of 沓, as seen in 踏. I wouldn't call it simplification, as the current forms arguably have made recalling the kanji and the readings harder.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2014-12-19

Yeah, should have used 旧字体 and 新字体, but that's too much code switching and stuff.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Sauzer - 2014-12-20

DrJones Wrote:爪＋臼 is also the original version of 沓, as seen in 踏. I wouldn't call it simplification, as the current forms arguably have made recalling the kanji and the readings harder.

Really, because I've only ever seen 㳫 as an itaiji of it. Also, no idea how accurate this etymology is, but:

Quote:《字源》
｢水+曰（えつ）｣。
｢曰｣は祝詞[のりと]を収めた器。その器に水を加えることは、その祝詞をけがし、効果を失わせる行為。
｢沓｣は祝詞を汚すことが原義。
｢沓沓｣の水の流れるような多弁の意は｢誻｣からで、言葉で汚す意から。
足で汚すことを｢踏｣という。

http://xn--i6q76ommckzzzfez63ccihj7o.com/honbun/zoukan-3723.html (wow that url got mangled - still works though)

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - DrJones - 2014-12-20

According to the data I got, the old form of 踏 is 蹈
http://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u8e48

Though now that you mention, I definitely made the wrong assumption that 沓 would likewise have the same old form. Glyphwiki only shows 㳫 as an alternate of 沓

http://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u3ceb

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Sauzer - 2014-12-20

DrJones Wrote:According to the data I got, the old form of 踏 is 蹈
http://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u8e48

Though now that you mention, I definitely made the wrong assumption that 沓 would likewise have the same old form. Glyphwiki only shows 㳫 as an alternate of 沓

http://glyphwiki.org/wiki/u3ceb

Apparently, they both existed already and came all the way back from different seal script characters:
[Image: 2bi3ybl.png]

(I totally don't see how this one derives though - looks more like 蹋?)
In Chinese, they seem basically the same in meaning (step on, leap, dance) (踏蹈)

I believe Glyphwiki is saying that people came to substitute 蹈 for 踏 due to having the same On-reading (this is apparently the phenomenon of 同音の書き換え字).

(Talk about your "Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji" Smile

)

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2014-12-28

Found this gem in 漢検合格ノート一級：
[Image: 5aUbMMO.png]

For those wondering it's read あさる (same meaning as 漁る, I guess), but I can't find this 漢字 in either 漢検漢字辞典 or 漢検一級完全征服, so I find it quite odd that's included.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - yudantaiteki - 2014-12-28

That kanji doesn't seem to be on the JIS1/2 set; it almost looks like a mistake from someone writing 求食 and that getting interpreted as a single kanji. Are you sure about the reading? I can't find that word in any dictionaries.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2014-12-28

I had a typo in the reading, but corrected it now. Edit: at least it seems to be an actual character:
http://crd.ndl.go.jp/reference/modules/d3ndlcrdentry/index.php?page=ref_view&id=1000039226
http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=296F0&useutf8=true

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - toshiromiballza - 2014-12-28

It's in JIS4 and it's a kokuji: http://homepage2.nifty.com/TAB01645/ohara/p22.htm#2298

Anyway, unrelated to the thread, but I'm too lazy to open a new one or search for an appropriate one; I came across this, which some might find interesting:

The Elements of Sōsho, Captain F. S. G. Piggott, 1913:
https://archive.org/details/elementsofsosho00pigg

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Sauzer - 2014-12-28

tetsueda Wrote:Found this gem in 漢検合格ノート一級：
http://i.imgur.com/5aUbMMO.png

For those wondering it's read あさる (same meaning as 漁る, I guess), but I can't find this 漢字 in either 漢検漢字辞典 or 漢検一級完全征服, so I find it quite odd that's included.

I think Kanken 一級 has one of those test policies where it's like "yes it's BASICALLY JIS X 0208 but we reserve the right to use other characters (because we're too lazy to check what's in the standard and we're just throwing darts at pages in the daikanwa jiten)"

edit: speaking of Morohashi, they never did make an electronic/web version of that did they? I am eyeing a 40000yen copy on ja amazon recently but I would sure like to not drop that much.

toshiromiballza Wrote:Anyway, unrelated to the thread, but I'm too lazy to open a new one or search for an appropriate one; I came across this, which some might find interesting:

The Elements of Sōsho, Captain F. S. G. Piggott, 1913:
https://archive.org/details/elementsofsosho00pigg

Very cool find, thanks!

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2014-12-28

Sauzer Wrote:I think Kanken 一級 has one of those test policies where it's like "yes it's BASICALLY JIS X 0208 but we reserve the right to use other characters (because we're too lazy to check what's in the standard and we're just throwing darts at pages in the daikanwa jiten)"

edit: speaking of Morohashi, they never did make an electronic/web version of that did they? I am eyeing a 40000yen copy on ja amazon recently but I would sure like to not drop that much.

For all levels up to 二級 they give a exact number of characters but for （準）一級 they say JISを目安とする and 約3000/6000字. I have leafed through Morohashi a bit at a library, but only it got me thinking "What a big pile of pointless scribbles". I like rare 漢字 and all, but 50000!?

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - yudantaiteki - 2014-12-28

Morohashi is indispensable for research in 漢文 texts (either of Japanese or Chinese origin) -- most of the kanji in such texts will appear one of the ~12K kanji dictionaries like 漢字源, but Morohashi can help not only with some of the rarer variant characters but with obscure uses of the characters or very rare compound words. It's fairly useless for anything else, though.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - yudantaiteki - 2015-02-05

So today I encountered 纜 in a pre-modern text, this time read as ともづな (fortunately even the 16th century writer provided furigana). Because of this thread I remembered that the kanji meant "cable" (in this case it is the "mooring line" connecting the boat to the dock).

The lesson is that complaining about things helps you remember them.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2015-02-14

Thanks for reminding me to look up what とも in ともづな is, turns out it's 艫（舮）.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2015-03-10

Saw this in a recent Gaki episode:

[Image: wcjHDXL.png]

Interestingly, wiki uses 軌 instead of 䡄:

http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%BB%8C%E4%BF%9D%E5%8D%9A%E5%85%89

Google hits are pretty even with either spelling. One thing I find a bit annoying is that 表外字 have a tendency to be typographically jarring (as in this case), especially when it's Gothic, I mean how hard is it to keep the line thickness the same?

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - DrJones - 2015-03-10

You just made me incredibly happy, because I've always felt that 軌 was a typo, and that this kanji should actually be written 䡄.

The reason is that 几 is a 'phonetic component', all kanji featuring it on the right side have キ as the ON reading. 九 is also a phonetic component with the ON reading キュウ.

However, the ON reading of 軌 is not キュウ, but キ. If it was written 䡄, japanese readings would be more regular and easier to remember. 軌 feels to me like a copyist mistake that somehow got perpetuated and became the standard form. That 䡄 exists means that I'm not the only one bothered by 軌's existence.

Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - yudantaiteki - 2015-03-10

According to my kanji dictionary, 九 is the correct sound-bearing component there but probably the sound correspondence is lost in the mist of ancient Chinese phonology.

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Vempele - 2015-12-27

鏢　ひょう

I think this is the first non-Kanken kanji I've ever seen in the wild (or even just outside this thread).

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2015-12-27

Where did you encounter it?

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Vempele - 2015-12-27

In the VN Soushuu Senshinkan Gakuen Hachimyoujin. It's got 2849 unique kanji in 2.64 MB of text according to this.

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - ChungIfei - 2016-01-08

Oddly enough, the Japanese Wikipedia page on TMJD is very readable from a Chinese perspective. It would only take a few modifications to translate into native Chinese, which is not normally the case with Japanese kanji. Perhaps Chinese readability is a good indicator of excessive kanji use.

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2016-01-14

So within a few minutes of watching some stupid show (櫻井有吉アブナイ夜会) I encounter both the the horizontal version (that I can't seem to be able to input) of 嵜 (so it's looks more like the good old 崎) and 摩訶不思議.

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Ash_S - 2016-01-14

﨑　← this one? I knew someone with that character in their name when it normally would be 崎 lol

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - tetsueda - 2016-01-14

Yes, that's the one. A bit apropos:

RE: Unnecessary use of rare/obscure kanji - Vempele - 2016-01-14

小さな不満が降り積もり、嫌がらせをしたくなった。夜子を、思いっきり誂いたい。

119 results for "誂う" からかう on Google (plus "very similar entries" for a total of 616). Rarest legitimate spelling of anything I've ever seen.