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Absolute beginner need some help - heiwa - 2014-11-23
After some hesitation I finally decided to start learning japanese.
Today I learned to recognize all the hiragana and want to start with kanji.
I read about the 1000 most common kanji in this forum but I cannot find the list, if exists. Is it included in heisig's book?
I read in a thread that heisig keywords aren't always the best meaning of the kanji but I will do from kanji to meaning of the 1000 common kanji in heisig order, so there is no need for the meanings to be unique. Where can I find a list of better meanings?
After kanji what is better to do first? Basic grammar or start immediately with word list with anki? Or do both at the same time?
I want to keep a blog of my progress, do you think is a good idea for motivation?
Sorry for the poor english and if the questions are too many
Absolute beginner need some help - klloud - 2014-11-23
I'm also just a beginner. I started to study about 4 months ago and I tried a bit of Heisig, but found out that it wasn't for me. It's a pretty valid way to approach kanji, but I suggest you to give it a try with a couple hundred kanji before deciding if you want to continue with it or not.
I would start with grammar right away, allied with study of kanji. It would be interesting to pick a textbook (either Genki or Minna no Nihongo) and start to create sentences in Anki for each chapter that you study. I'm currently in lesson 17 of Minna no Nihongo and since I started studying, I learned about 500 or so vocabulary words and I know the most common readings of over 200 kanji.
I like to learn vocabulary and only after I know them, learn the corresponding kanji. I would suggest you to also give a try with the Core 6k deck when you have seen a bit of grammar. I started it when I got to lesson 15 in MNN, but you can jump into it at any time.
Absolute beginner need some help - heiwa - 2014-11-23
klloud Wrote:I'm also just a beginner. I started to study about 4 months ago and I tried a bit of Heisig, but found out that it wasn't for me. It's a pretty valid way to approach kanji, but I suggest you to give it a try with a couple hundred kanji before deciding if you want to continue with it or not.If I understand right you learn new kanji as you encounter them? I don't know if I can do the same thing, I've seen how the kanji are structured in rtk and I think it is a best approach for me. But I don't want to spend much time with it, I've read other post in this forum where other users use rtk only to gain confidence in kanji and fight the initial confusion of linees without apparent logic behind them. If I do only 1000 most common kanji from kanji to meaning I think I can do it in a month or less.
I would start with grammar right away, allied with study of kanji. It would be interesting to pick a textbook (either Genki or Minna no Nihongo) and start to create sentences in Anki for each chapter that you study. I'm currently in lesson 17 of Minna no Nihongo and since I started studying, I learned about 500 or so vocabulary words and I know the most common readings of over 200 kanji.
I like to learn vocabulary and only after I know them, learn the corresponding kanji. I would suggest you to also give a try with the Core 6k deck when you have seen a bit of grammar. I started it when I got to lesson 15 in MNN, but you can jump into it at any time.
I know many people start over enthusiastic and slow down when the actual work begin, but I'm confident I can do it hard core in a couple of week of non-stop study. I don't pretend to learn kanji this way but only to gain confidence and understand the logic behind them. I will start actual learning of kanji when I will learn real japanese vocabulary, this is only a preliminary preparation to deal with real japanese study.
What do you think? And thank you for your answer. How do you find minna no nihongo? I have not decided yet what books to buy, my main candidates are minna no nihongo and genki. I know there are valid online resources but I like textbooks better.
Absolute beginner need some help - klloud - 2014-11-23
heiwa Wrote:If I understand right you learn new kanji as you encounter them? I don't know if I can do the same thing, I've seen how the kanji are structured in rtk and I think it is a best approach for me. But I don't want to spend much time with it, I've read other post in this forum where other users use rtk only to gain confidence in kanji and fight the initial confusion of linees without apparent logic behind them. If I do only 1000 most common kanji from kanji to meaning I think I can do it in a month or less.That's right. I learn the kanji for the words I stumble upon in the textbook. RTK is pretty good and I've read that it is super helpful in the long run if one is willing to drill through it. At first, I was indeed overwhelmed by kanji, since it felt like a bunch of random lines, but as I progressed in my studies I started to realize that it's not like that. What I do to don't confuse myself with the stroke order and the general outline of the kanji is write them down. It becomes a lot easier to distinguish kanji with similar radicals when I have wrote them down several times.
I know many people start over enthusiastic and slow down when the actual work begin, but I'm confident I can do it hard core in a couple of week of non-stop study. I don't pretend to learn kanji this way but only to gain confidence and understand the logic behind them. I will start actual learning of kanji when I will learn real japanese vocabulary, this is only a preliminary preparation to deal with real japanese study.
What do you think? And thank you for your answer. How do you find minna no nihongo? I have not decided yet what books to buy, my main candidates are minna no nihongo and genki. I know there are valid online resources but I like textbooks better.
So you are basically doing an investment. That's understandable and is usually what I read about RTK. You invest time in the method so you can save up some in the future. I think it is a valid approach and you should try it. Like I said before though, you should see if it is right for you. It wasn't for me and I think that if you reach a point where you are not seeing the benefit of it, you could drop it.
I really like Minna no Nihongo. There's a separate book that has vocabulary translations and grammar explanations, but the main book is completely in japanese. I tried Genki and understood why people like it, but the constant use of english, romaji in the first chapters and group suggested activities bothered me a little. I feel like Minna no Nihongo is more immersive, even though its grammar explanations are a bit more obscure that the ones found in Genki.
I like textbooks because they provide a structured approach to the language. I keep a notebook where I write down the answers for the questions for the chapters and this has been helping me a lot. It strengthens my recognition and memorization process and I can also see the progress in my handwriting. I suggest you to try both of them and see which is better for you.
Absolute beginner need some help - heiwa - 2014-11-23
klloud Wrote:Thank you for your detailed answer. Sorry if I keep it short but as you can see I'm not very familiar with english. I hope it's not mistaked for lack of gratitudeheiwa Wrote:If I understand right you learn new kanji as you encounter them? I don't know if I can do the same thing, I've seen how the kanji are structured in rtk and I think it is a best approach for me. But I don't want to spend much time with it, I've read other post in this forum where other users use rtk only to gain confidence in kanji and fight the initial confusion of linees without apparent logic behind them. If I do only 1000 most common kanji from kanji to meaning I think I can do it in a month or less.That's right. I learn the kanji for the words I stumble upon in the textbook. RTK is pretty good and I've read that it is super helpful in the long run if one is willing to drill through it. At first, I was indeed overwhelmed by kanji, since it felt like a bunch of random lines, but as I progressed in my studies I started to realize that it's not like that. What I do to don't confuse myself with the stroke order and the general outline of the kanji is write them down. It becomes a lot easier to distinguish kanji with similar radicals when I have wrote them down several times.
I know many people start over enthusiastic and slow down when the actual work begin, but I'm confident I can do it hard core in a couple of week of non-stop study. I don't pretend to learn kanji this way but only to gain confidence and understand the logic behind them. I will start actual learning of kanji when I will learn real japanese vocabulary, this is only a preliminary preparation to deal with real japanese study.
What do you think? And thank you for your answer. How do you find minna no nihongo? I have not decided yet what books to buy, my main candidates are minna no nihongo and genki. I know there are valid online resources but I like textbooks better.
So you are basically doing an investment. That's understandable and is usually what I read about RTK. You invest time in the method so you can save up some in the future. I think it is a valid approach and you should try it. Like I said before though, you should see if it is right for you. It wasn't for me and I think that if you reach a point where you are not seeing the benefit of it, you could drop it.
I really like Minna no Nihongo. There's a separate book that has vocabulary translations and grammar explanations, but the main book is completely in japanese. I tried Genki and understood why people like it, but the constant use of english, romaji in the first chapters and group suggested activities bothered me a little. I feel like Minna no Nihongo is more immersive, even though its grammar explanations are a bit more obscure that the ones found in Genki.
I like textbooks because they provide a structured approach to the language. I keep a notebook where I write down the answers for the questions for the chapters and this has been helping me a lot. It strengthens my recognition and memorization process and I can also see the progress in my handwriting. I suggest you to try both of them and see which is better for you.
I've given a look at both minna no nihongo and genki and I find the simpler the latter, and moreover I've found a list of all the kanji in genki 1 and 2 but not of minna no nihongo. Those are 634 uniques kanji, in the end I don't need the rtk lite list, I will use this list of the kanji contained in genki. The fact that they are only 634 is an advantage because I will do rtk only for those kanji that I will see in the next months of study with genki and after that I hope I will be enough accustomed to kanji to switch to your approach and learn new kanji as I encounter them. I will do kanji to meaning so it will require less time, for only 634. The less time I spend in rtk the earlier I will start to study grammar and vocables.
The only problem left is from where to take kanji meanings, I've seen a xls file before in this forum but I can't find it now. It has various columns with meanings taken from rtk and other sources, from those I remember wikipedia. How can I find it?
Absolute beginner need some help - klloud - 2014-11-23
heiwa Wrote:Thank you for your detailed answer. Sorry if I keep it short but as you can see I'm not very familiar with english. I hope it's not mistaked for lack of gratitudeNo problem at all hahah. English is also not my first language. It's rewarding to know that I'm being of help.
I've given a look at both minna no nihongo and genki and I find the simpler the latter, and moreover I've found a list of all the kanji in genki 1 and 2 but not of minna no nihongo. Those are 634 uniques kanji, in the end I don't need the rtk lite list, I will use this list of the kanji contained in genki. The fact that they are only 634 is an advantage because I will do rtk only for those kanji that I will see in the next months of study with genki and after that I hope I will be enough accustomed to kanji to switch to your approach and learn new kanji as I encounter them. I will do kanji to meaning so it will require less time, for only 634. The less time I spend in rtk the earlier I will start to study grammar and vocables.
The only problem left is from where to take kanji meanings, I've seen a xls file before in this forum but I can't find it now. It has various columns with meanings taken from rtk and other sources, from those I remember wikipedia. How can I find it?
That's interesting. I didn't know about the number of kanji used in Genki. However, if I'm not mistaken, the list in the back of book that shows stroke order, readings and common words has only 317 kanji. Maybe there is kanji used in the book that is not necessarily in the reference list. I think Minna no Nihongo has about 518 kanji. That sounds like a plan to me. It seems that doing all the +2k kanji would be too time consuming.
I don't know about that list, but I use http://jisho.org/ to learn readings and stroke order. When I add a new kanji in my deck, I try to add the readings for the words that I studied. Some example sentences also help to memorize the kanji more easily.
Good luck!
Absolute beginner need some help - heiwa - 2014-11-23
Thank you!! The list is of the actual kanji used in the lessons, comprised the first 2 lessons if they were written in kanji and not in hiragana, I have unsuspended those kanji in anki after half a hour of try and fail, but now I want to import another field for the cards but I'm too exhausted now, I will try tomorrow! I've found that list, it is in a thread always up in the japanese language section. The list is this
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AqYInAMvWw-2cHl4V0xpSTVsa091SzI1bDMxMzVxQnc&hl=en#gid=0
I want to import the column after the rtk keyword column. Those seem the best condense meaning in the less number of words. Good night and thank you!
Absolute beginner need some help - ktcgx - 2014-11-23
Firstly, what language do you speak? There a lot of people on this forum whose first language is not English, so perhaps someone can help you in your native language, if needed? Also, RTK exists in other languages (French, Spanish, German) so you may find native keywords more helpful.
Secondly, here's my advice:
1. You can find a pdf sample online of the first 294 kanji from Heisig's book ( https://nirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp/en/files/2012/12/RK-1-6th-edition-sample.pdf ). This should be enough for you to see whether you can do the method or not. It requires a strong imagination, so if you like daydreaming, or are a creative type, then it should work very well for you.
Because his introduction is written in very dense, academic English, I will simplify it for you:
There are so many kanji, many learners find them too daunting and give up. Imagination is a powerful memory tool. So, we can use our imaginative memory (imagination) to come up with crazy images that will help us easily and simply remember one basic meaning for each kanji, and how to write that kanji.
The way to learn kanji with Heisig's method: 1. create an image in your mind that represents the primitives that make up the kanji (a 'primitive' is the groups of lines that make up elements in the kanji). 2. using the images of each primitive, imagine that in your mind those images are acting out the meaning of the kanji. 3. write the kanji down. 4. check you answer.
Learning kanji can take many years of rote memorisation, but Heisig's method can be done in as little as 6 months. That includes the readings as well.
2. Use this site (click on the reviewing the kanji link in the top right hand corner) to review the kanji you have learnt. The reason I suggest this site, and not anki, is that this site is very simple and easy to use, and anki takes a bit of work to understand.
3. Once you've gone through that sample of kanji in the link above, you should be able to tell if the method is working for you. Remember, it requires a strong imagination, which can take a bit of practise.
4. If you like the method, I would see it through until you have finished RTK book 1 (2-4 months). Then go back to Genki, or whatever textbook you are doing, and use anki to leanr vocab and grammar. You can also do RTK2 while you are doing this. I really like RTK 2's method of teaching you the onyomi, it shows you the patterns quite well I think. I didn't really try it for the kunyomi though.
5. When you're finished with your textbook, you can add more anki decks depending on what you want to learn, and also you should start branching out into native media, like books and tv shows. There are a whole lot of things you can use depending on your area of interest, and you can easily ask for advice on the forums here when the time comes.