Double-checking this sentence - Printable Version

Double-checking this sentence - Printable Version

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Double-checking this sentence - shneen - 2008-02-26

wrightak Wrote:Thanks for checking up on it and letting me know. I don't understand why が is better. I'll have to investigate...

I think it's because the bus isn't the main topic of the sentence... the speaker is. But in this case it's not stated, it's implied... the sentence can be written as バスが来なかったせいで、私は待たされた。

There's a similar sentence in the 2kyuu　日本語総合まとめ　book...

バスが遅れたせいで、約束の時間に間に合わなかった。
"I missed my appointment because the bus was late."

Same case here.

Double-checking this sentence - pm215 - 2008-02-26

Quote:バスが来なかったせいで、待たされた

バス has to be marked with が here because it's the subject of a verb [来る] which is a subordinate clause [ie it is modifying せい]. The subject of a verb in a subordinate clause is always が marked if it is present at all. If you start your sentence out with バスは then バス is going to be the topic, and the only way for it to be the subject of 来る is if it's also the subject of the main verb of the sentence (which would only be possible in some tortured context and probably with a different main verb to boot -- "the bus escaped the accident because it didn't come", or something?).

Hmm; that came out a bit less clear than I'd hoped, but the short answer is "use が in subordinate clauses" -- one of the easier bits of は vs が, I think.

Double-checking this sentence - johnzep - 2008-02-26

I think y'all are on the mark with the subordinate clause.

I searched google blogs for examples in the main clause and found both は and が, though が seems to give more results, but that is probably to some extent from the subordinate clauses increasing the number.

先週の土曜日帰ったとき、３０分間待っても、バスが来なかった。

and

そんな感じなんでしょうか?バスが来なかった！！バス停は２つあって、早く来る方のに乗りたいから
そっちで待ってたのに来ない?

and

雪のせいでどれだけ待ってもバスは来なかった

and lastly,

なお10分ほど経過したがバスは来なかった。

Double-checking this sentence - Thora - 2008-02-26

wrightak Wrote:I don't know what I said to make you think this but you're absolutely right. I'm a huge believer in applying the grammar you learn.

It was in another thread somewhere (maybe RTK2?).

Similarly, answers that take some sleuthing stay with me far longer than anything I read passively. So, as fussy and dull as this grammar chat can sound, I find these threads helpful. I end up re-learning stuff (like when to use お and に in causative sentences) I otherwise wouldn't have, but needed to. So don't think in terms of right and wrong - it's a helpful discussion and you've been generous with explanations. btw, that 'trapdoor' bit for てしまた...that was great.

Since we're here.... perhaps I could ask someone for help with one of my KIC sentences? I don't understand "死にきれない" in: 私は何でも悪いことはしていないので、身の潔白を証明するまでは死んでも死にきれない。　Does it mean that even death won't stop the need to prove his innocence??

Double-checking this sentence - ivantolearnkanji - 2008-02-26

Here's how I'd translate these (in a style to illustrate the grammatical point):

バスが来なかったせいで、待たされた。
Because the bus didn't come, I [implied subject] was made to wait.

バスは来なかったせいで、待たされた。
The bus was made to wait because it [implied causal agent] didn't come.

Second, I don't think there's a problem with an inanimate causal agent.

騙された！
I've been tricked! (by whatever)

some examples in the wild...

悪徳商法に騙された私。
[It's] me who's been tricked by unscrupulous sales practices.

出会いサイトに騙された
...tricked by an encounter site...

and from WWWJDIC:

たくさんの人々がその広告にだまされた。
Many people were deceived to the advertisement.

青空にだまされて傘を持ってこなかった。
I was deceived by the blue sky and brought no umbrella.

アイバン

Double-checking this sentence - ivantolearnkanji - 2008-02-26

Hi Thora, here's a shot at it, taking some literary liberties.

死んでも
even having died

死にきれない
It cannot be cut by death.

身の潔白を証明するまでは死んでも死にきれない。
Even if I were dead, death wouldn't stop me until I have proven my personal innocence.

私は何でも悪いことはしていないので、身の潔白を証明するまでは死んでも死にきれない。

I haven't done anything wrong in any way, and so even if I were dead, not even death would prevent me from proving my personal innocence.

アイバン

Double-checking this sentence - pm215 - 2008-02-26

Quote:死にきれない
It cannot be cut by death.

Isn't this the grammar suffix ~きれない rather than the negative potential form of plain old 切る ?

~きれない is something like 'be unable to do till the end'; the usual sample sentences often involve 数える [to count], thus 数えきれない星 [uncountably many stars, so many stars you couldn't count them all].

Anyway, check your grammar reference for details (I'm 5000km away from mine at the moment, unfortunately.)

Double-checking this sentence - shneen - 2008-02-27

pm215 Wrote:
Quote:死にきれない
It cannot be cut by death.
Isn't this the grammar suffix ~きれない rather than the negative potential form of plain old 切る ?

~きれない is something like 'be unable to do till the end'; the usual sample sentences often involve 数える [to count], thus 数えきれない星 [uncountably many stars, so many stars you couldn't count them all].

Anyway, check your grammar reference for details (I'm 5000km away from mine at the moment, unfortunately.)

You're right.... In this case, the きる is of the 'to finish something completely' variety and has nothing to do with cutting. Big Grin

So it's not 'cannot be cut by death' but rather more like 'can't completely die.'

Double-checking this sentence - wrightak - 2008-02-27

johnzep Wrote:I think y'all are on the mark with the subordinate clause.

I searched google blogs for examples in the main clause and found both は and が, though が seems to give more results, but that is probably to some extent from the subordinate clauses increasing the number.

Wow, thanks to everyone for pointing it out to me! It is of course because of the subordinate clause. I was thinking of

バスは来なかったから、待たされた。

For which I still think that は is more appropriate. I'd forgotten that johnzep had inserted せいで, which changes the first part into a subordinate clause modifying せい.

Regarding the appropriateness of an inanimate causer, it's obviously the case that it's valid for a causer to be unmentioned in the sentence, but only for passive ones I think. Whether an unmentioned causer is animate or inanimate seems to be open for debate in those cases. However are there any active sentences which explicitly state an inanimate causer? For example, is the following acceptable?:

大変な地震は私を考えさせた。 The terrible earthquake forced me to think (about how to prepare in the future or something)

I would have been tempted to say no if I hadn't read the quote that Thora gave from the dictionary of BJG. I'll ask a Japanese person at the next opportunity but that won't be for a while...

Double-checking this sentence - wrightak - 2008-02-27

ivantolearnkanji Wrote:Second, I don't think there's a problem with an inanimate causal agent.

騙された！
I've been tricked! (by whatever)

some examples in the wild...

Thanks for the example sentences Ivan but I'm afraid that's not the causative construction. That's just the passive. The causative would be だまさせた and the causative passive would be だまさせられた.

Double-checking this sentence - Thora - 2008-02-27

I see. Thanks. So.....perhaps this would reflect the correct meaning:

"I haven't done anything wrong, so I won't rest in peace until I prove my innocence." ?

Double-checking this sentence - wrightak - 2008-02-27

Thora Wrote:Since we're here.... perhaps I could ask someone for help with one of my KIC sentences? I don't understand "死にきれない" in: 私は何でも悪いことはしていないので、身の潔白を証明するまでは死んでも死にきれない。　Does it mean that even death won't stop the need to prove his innocence??

KIC = Kanji in Context, right? It's a shame we don't understand the context! It's a pretty difficult sentence that I don't fully understand either. Here's my take on it:

As people have pointed out, it's definitely the きれない construction, which is one of the JLPT2 grammar points. It looks funny here because 死ぬ is one of the few verbs ending in ぬ so its ～ます stem looks odd.

The tricky thing here is the verb that it's used with and the fact that 死んでも comes right before it. The first part obviously means "I haven't done anything wrong so...". I think the second part means something along the lines of "Until I prove my innocence, even if I die, I won't really be dead". The idea I'm getting is that if the speaker dies without his innocence being proved, then his soul cannot rest, therefore he won't fully die.

Tricky one. Thanks for sharing.

Double-checking this sentence - shneen - 2008-02-27

Thora Wrote:I see. Thanks. So.....perhaps this would reflect the correct meaning:

"I haven't done anything wrong, so I won't rest in peace until I prove my innocence." ?

I'd say that's a safe bet, although like wrightak said above, I would maybe change it to "...even if I die, I won't rest in peace..." that way you've got the　死んでも in there, if you're going for translating things a bit more literally. 死にきれない is really difficult to translate... but it's definitely saying that he couldn't be fully dead unless he's proven innocent... so I think your idea of "rest in peace" is on the right track.

But I'll agree, that's a hard one to to learn the ~きる・～きれる・～きれない　form with. :o

Double-checking this sentence - ivantolearnkanji - 2008-02-28

Yeah that's what I get for winging it. Thanks for the correx.