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+--- Thread: Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide (/thread-12220.html)
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - RandomQuotes - 2014-09-25
Looks like I made a mind slip, I should have said Direct Instruction, not Direct Method. I get the names confused.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Follow_Through - Largest Scientific Study on Education: basically DI showed the greatest success in comparison to the other tested models. The study is interesting.
http://psych.athabascau.ca/html/387/OpenModules/Engelmann/ - good intro to DI
Edit:
Replaced the couldn't find the text with a link.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - Flamerokz - 2014-09-25
RandomQuotes Wrote:So when you say that grammar-translation is the best way to learn a language, I know for a fact you don't know what you're talking about.Queue response from john555 pointing out an irrelevant inconsistency in what you said, and ignoring the rest of the very well made points.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - yogert909 - 2014-09-25
Flamerokz Wrote:Let's not get him started again. This thread already has very little to do with Tae Kim's grammar guide.RandomQuotes Wrote:So when you say that grammar-translation is the best way to learn a language, I know for a fact you don't know what you're talking about.Queue response from john555 pointing out an irrelevant inconsistency in what you said, and ignoring the rest of the very well made points.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - vileru - 2014-09-25
RandomQuotes Wrote:using a memory palace to memorize the core grammar...How? Memory palaces are typically visually-based, so how exactly do you visualize grammatical rules? I'm sure I could come up with an example if I tried, but what you seem to have in mind is a technique that allows you to visualize any grammatical rule. I'm eager to hear about such a technique.
Also, how would you use the memory palace in real time? With a particularly vivid memory palace, you can often jump directly to the relevant locus and immediately access the memory you need. However, if you don't remember where the memory you're looking for is, then you'll have to start from the beginning of the palace, or at least a nearby locus, and continue sequentially. Obviously, you can't just wander around a memory palace mid-conversation, especially a massive grammar memory palace with hundreds of loci. Are there any practical solutions to these kinds of issues?
I'm also interested about what you mean by "basic linguistics". I assume you mean stuff like morphemes, phonemes, IPA, and theories/studies on language acquisition. But maybe I'm wrong and you mean stuff like the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, generative grammar, and semantics. Anyway, I don't mean to be fussy. I'm inquiring because I'm interested.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - yogert909 - 2014-09-25
Yes, that kind of made me curious as well. From my very limited knowledge of memory palaces, they seem to work best for material that you want to memorize in a certain order or in categories. How would this help with grammar rules?
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - RandomQuotes - 2014-09-25
vileru Wrote:How? Memory palaces are typically visually-based, so how exactly do you visualize grammatical rules? I'm sure I could come up with an example if I tried, but what you seem to have in mind is a technique that allows you to visualize any grammatical rule. I'm eager to hear about such a technique.By Base Linguistics I basically mean a broad overview of linguistics, essentially the equivalent of a 101 and a 201 course: phonetics, syntax, lexology, morphology, and a spattering of grammar theory. So, basically knowing things like what is case, gender, active, passive, subjunctive, etc. Basically, enough to use a basic linguistic grammar with help of a search engine.
Also, how would you use the memory palace in real time? With a particularly vivid memory palace, you can often jump directly to the relevant locus and immediately access the memory you need. However, if you don't remember where the memory you're looking for is, then you'll have to start from the beginning of the palace, or at least a nearby locus, and continue sequentially. Obviously, you can't just wander around a memory palace mid-conversation, especially a massive grammar memory palace with hundreds of loci. Are there any practical solutions to these kinds of issues?
I'm also interested about what you mean by "basic linguistics". I assume you mean stuff like morphemes, phonemes, IPA, and theories/studies on language acquisition. But maybe I'm wrong and you mean stuff like the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, generative grammar, and semantics. Anyway, I don't mean to be fussy. I'm inquiring because I'm interested.
The basics of the memory place involves combining the loci with a grid based system. Each loci will be representative of one larger category, and each loci will have a grid. Each point in the grid represents a specific grammar point represented by a visual or auditory mnemonic, preferably using the target language. Grammar memorization is boring, so I basically, will outline the structure of a grammar into a note book and try to organize it into to some sore of coherent structure, so that patterns that are similar are next to each other. This takes a bit of time, and it is where using comprehensive grammars becomes useful. Because memorizing grammar is not particularly interesting, I then set an alarm clock for 20 minutes, and proceed to visualize and store the grammar (by paradigm or etc) and practice recalling that pattern. When I can recall it, without error, I then move on to the next piece. Repeat this until the alarm goes off and stop, the next day continue. I try to do it at night or take a nap after, if I do it in the middle of the day or morning. Doing this way, you should be able to memorize a language complete grammar system in a matter of months.
Now, this doesn't make you fluent by any stretch, but it means that you're straight up done with grammar. And since you're done with grammar, it makes using native material easier. And using lots of native material, leads to fluency or literacy.
As far as in real time goes, it starts slow, but by doing extensive reading and watching tv/movies, after you have the grammar stored you start to speed up. By doing this repeatedly , the walk becomes faster and faster until you hit the point where it becomes instinctual, and you no longer need to think about it it to access the rules.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - JKS87 - 2014-09-27
On the subject of Tae Kim; can anyone here recommend a good source of example sentences for reinforcing grammar points covered in the guide? I really like the way he explains things but the examples aren't working for me at all. Is there some kind of online grammar dictionary I can use?
Thanks.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - qwertyytrewq - 2014-09-28
Tzadeck Wrote:(edit: Will reply when less tired, haha)We're eagerly waiting.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-09-28
JKS87 Wrote:On the subject of Tae Kim; can anyone here recommend a good source of example sentences for reinforcing grammar points covered in the guide? I really like the way he explains things but the examples aren't working for me at all. Is there some kind of online grammar dictionary I can use?Jgram.org
Thanks.
On the non free side, the Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar are stuffed with examples.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - john555 - 2014-09-28
RandomQuotes Wrote:To use your own argument C. Dunn isn't native speaker. .The book was written by two authors, C. Dunn and S. Yanada. The title page says S. Yanada, M. Econ. (Tokyo). I imagine that S. Yanada is a native Japanese person who speaks (or spoke, that is) with native fluency.
Note, I'm not ONLY working through Teach Yourself Japanese. I'm also working through a reader (kanji & kana) and also will be enrolling in a couple of months in another night class (my third one) at my local university for "live practice" with Japanese people. Plus I've started to take a stab at real Japanese magazines.
My main goal is to read the language (since I don't live in Japan) rather than speak it (or watch movies).
I still have to know the basic nuts and bolts of the language though. I'm on Lesson 27 of TYJ and will be finished in a couple of months. I learned A LOT from this book. I did try a newer book (Japanese For Busy People) but I didn't like it because it doesn't have any straight English into Japanese written translation exercises.
On a lighter note, here's a picture of an original brochure listing Teach Yourself Japanese, and other books in the series, for sale. It's definitely a period piece. Besides Japanese, there are "Bee Keeping", "Chess", "Budgerigars", "Judo", "Lip Reading", etc.
http://i698.photobucket.com/albums/vv346/mrjohn2/brochuretyb.jpg
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - JKS87 - 2014-09-28
gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:Jgram.orgCheers, that seems like a good resource. Definitely want to grab a copy of that basic grammar dictionary at some point too. I just want sentences that seem human if you know what I mean. Modifying Tae Kim's English translations on my cards seems like a good idea but I'm scared I might screw the meaning of something up too much. Once I'm deep into the Essential Grammar chapter I might just start taking sentences from an easy manga or something.
On the non free side, the Dictionaries of Japanese Grammar are stuffed with examples.
Thanks again.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - Betelgeuzah - 2014-09-29
One massive issue I have with Tae Kim's guide is also that the particles aren't explained well enough in my opinion. At least I never came across a lesson where he would explain the meaning of に in morau/passive sentences. Figuring it out "the rules" gave me lots of headaches back in the day. It was actually the DoJBG that settled the issue for me finally.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - Vempele - 2014-09-29
He does say both に and から can be used with もらう but indeed doesn't explain how the giver is suddenly the target (seriously, he even calls it the target particle in that very sentence).
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - Kuzunoha13 - 2014-09-29
Chino's All About Particles is a pretty good resource as well. I think there are a few uses that weren't covered in DOJG.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - Tzadeck - 2014-09-29
qwertyytrewq Wrote:Uhh, is this a jab?Tzadeck Wrote:(edit: Will reply when less tired, haha)We're eagerly waiting.
Would like to have deleted my comment, but this forum doesn't allow that, so I wrote the the truth--I wrote a reply and then realized that in my fatigue I explained myself poorly.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-09-29
Also, for more intermediate and advanced grammar, Japanese Core Words and Phrases is a nice little resource that covers grammar, common contractions, and idiomatic expressions. Lots of example sentences to boot.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - kainzero - 2014-09-29
my general experience with reddit's learnjapanese forum has been people mostly recommending genki and asking basic beginner questions and making claims like "i went through genki 1 and played pokemon and understood 80% of it!". discussion on N3 level and above are pretty rare so i generally have a pretty low opinion of their opinions on teaching materials anyway.
i referenced taekim a lot in my early stages when i would browse the internet and read a japanese article and forget a simple grammar construction. i never went through the guide from a-z but i liked it as a reference. certainly dojg series is better, but for a quick refresher taekim is good.
Haters gonna hate: Tae Kim Grammar Guide - qwertyytrewq - 2014-09-29
Tzadeck Wrote:Not a jabqwertyytrewq Wrote:Uhh, is this a jab?Tzadeck Wrote:(edit: Will reply when less tired, haha)We're eagerly waiting.
Would like to have deleted my comment, but this forum doesn't allow that, so I wrote the the truth--I wrote a reply and then realized that in my fatigue I explained myself poorly.