Stansfield123 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:itiban hutuu

???

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:itiban hutuu

???

This is Nihon-shiki romanization: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon-shiki_romanization

"Nippon-shiki has been established by the International Organization for Standardization in the ISO 3602 strict form. The JSL system, which is intended for use instructing foreign students of Japanese, is also based on Nippon-shiki."

John555, which textbook are you using? Is it Jorden?

sholum Wrote:It's one of the most aggravating versions of romaji, that's what; never understood why textbooks love it (and other such abominations) so much.

gaiaslastlaugh Wrote:

Stansfield123 Wrote:

john555 Wrote:itiban hutuu

???

This is Nihon-shiki romanization: http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nihon-shiki_romanization

"Nippon-shiki has been established by the International Organization for Standardization in the ISO 3602 strict form. The JSL system, which is intended for use instructing foreign students of Japanese, is also based on Nippon-shiki."

John555, which textbook are you using? Is it Jorden?

dtcamero Wrote:I read "kuru" and can't not think "cooroo"... as opposed to the proper U and R pronunciation

Quote:everything in Japanese hangs on the kanji... that's how people don't get confused by all the similar sounds... because they are all tied to these funny squiggles.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I feel sorry for children, who can't speak their own language because they haven't learned the squiggles yet.

dtcamero Wrote:I suppose we don't need to beat this dead romaji horse any more but wow, man. wow.[...]

dtcamero Wrote:I read "kuru" and can't not think "cooroo"... as opposed to the proper U and R pronunciation

john555 Wrote:I like kunrei-siki because it's cleaner looking e.g, when you conjugate verbs:

matu
matimasu
matanai

vs.

matsu
machimasu
matanai

Fintan Wrote:Regarding Romaji.

I don't want to stoke up a potential flame war (this site is so much better than it was, but I am always surprised how personal stuff gets), however I don't really see what is that wrong with using Romaji. Decades ago my spoken Japanese was much better than the Japanese graduates I worked with simply because I devoured a romaji dicitonary of 3,000 words and later one with 5,000 words, and still later a business dictionary. I am sure I did not know all the words but certainly did know most of them. I concentrated on grammar and verbal skills. It worked well. I watched people learning kana and kanji and it was painfully slow. Certainly, those that progressed to advanced Japanese ended up way ahead of me (but there were very few). True, without kana and kanji I was very limited. What I did notice is that once I started to read and write kana and kanji my progress was swift. It is my deep regret that I did not carry on.

I am leanring Kana and Kanji again now, but honestly, if I am writing out excercises it is just quicker to write in Romaji. I can still read the Kana but I write Romaji faster. I also notice my two Skype partners write vocab in Romaji. Does not cause problems. For me speed and quantity of work done is the key.

Regarding the similar sounds of Kanji and the need for different 'squiggles'; I wrote out reports many times in Romaji (and later in Kana) and I can honestly say there was no confusion. Context usually sorted similar meanings out. I am not convinced that Kanji is necessary. However, it is never going to disappear. It is part of the culture.

Old textbooks. As I am an old git I prefer them. There is more emphasis on grammar which I like but the Basic, Intermediate and Advanced Dictionaries are fantastic. Does not matter what one uses really - just keep studying.

Lastly, someone mentioned Jorden's Japanese the Spoken Language. Years ago I bought this (with tapes) in a Charity shop just in case I ever studied Japanese again. Did not not really like the version of Romaji but understood it OK. These are the best books I have ever seen on spoken language. Saw the much earlier 1960s text book - probably ok but not the same standard as JSL. Printed version had typewriter typeface which was hard on the eyes.

I have always felt if there were Romaji textbooks and readers to intermediate level and then one had to learn Kana and Kanji, the dropout rate of Japanese learners would be considerably reduced.

Many of you are talented and have worked hard to achieve your levels. People here are motivated. I wonder if you have forgotten how hard it was at first? I used to have a Japanese friend who taught using Japanese for Busy People. The dropout rate after book one leaving romaji behind was heartbreaking for her. She used to to think books 2 and 3 should have carried on in Romaji.

I am not saying I am right. Indeed, Romaji does have to be left behind if one is serious about learning to any reasonable high level but I have found it serves a useful purpose. After all there is Kanji, Hiragana and Katakana - might as well use Romaji as well, especially if you are already an native English speaker.

Helltrixz Wrote:Also I don't understand how one can be "learning" kana. I thought the continuous tense in English wasn't supposed to be used like that.

Helltrixz Wrote:Also I don't understand how one can be "learning" kana. I thought the continuous tense in English wasn't supposed to be used like that.

Helltrixz Wrote:

john555 Wrote:I like kunrei-siki because it's cleaner looking e.g, when you conjugate verbs:
matu
matimasu
matanai
vs.
matsu
machimasu
matanai

But what's the point if it's written wrong? I mean I can imagine the English with their messed up way of randomly spelling words could get used to having a "t" represent three different sounds, but it looks hideous compared to the rest of the latin-influenced scripts.

RandomQuotes Wrote:アイノーライット。イツジャストライクウェンジャパニスビギナズライットライクディス。ザサウンドズオブイングリシュアンドジャパニズアエクサクトリーザセイムソーイツノプロブレムウエンラーナーズライットインカタカナインステードオブユジングザアルファベット。アンドウイアルノーザットウェンユーブレークユーアレッグユーワントツユーズクラチスフォーエバー。ツービフランクアンドツブトダウンディスシャーレードフォーアーセコンドボースローマジフォナンジャパニズアンドカタカナフォーザジャパニズアーミーリークラチズツヘルプビギナーズ。ラーニングカンジイェッスイズアペインインザアッスアットザビギニングイエッスバットカナイズノットザットハードツラーン。

Vempele Wrote:

Helltrixz Wrote:Also I don't understand how one can be "learning" kana. I thought the continuous tense in English wasn't supposed to be used like that.

"And that concludes today's lesson on あ. Tomorrow we'll be learning い."

You're learning kana from the moment you start learning them until you know them all or stop trying.

Tzadeck Wrote:It's written fine. Japanese people think of their own syllabary in groups of five vowels. So it's あいうえお、かきくけこ、さしすせそ、たちつてと, etc. When you write 'tu' 'ti' and 'ta' you just means the 't' group with the corresponding vowel. Anyway, Japanese people overwhelmingly romanize this way naturally, so the more you get used to looking at Japanese people romanizing, the more you'll get used to this method. I've taught junior high a bit, and you need to explain to the kids the way they should romanize in English to make it easier to understand for English speakers.

RandomQuotes Wrote:If someone thinks romaji is detrimental, this seems like the appropriate place to argue for such.

RandomQuotes Wrote:As far as a one to one match. No. The consonant in ふ is f nor is it h. and る is neither an r nor an l. and ん changes it's pronunciation based on what comes after it. Most of the time sure, but not one to one.

Helltrixz Wrote:I never paid much attention to either, I didn't know this. Does that mean that when Japanese learn western languages they also pronounce western words in that way? For instance, the clock is chicking? Or I love eating tsuna?

Helltrixz Wrote:I never paid much attention to either, I didn't know this. Does that mean that when Japanese learn western languages they also pronounce western words in that way? For instance, the clock is chicking? Or I love eating tsuna?

Tzadeck Wrote:Japanese people use romaji too, to represent Japanese sounds exactly as they are pronounced.