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+--- Thread: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) (/thread-12092.html)
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Nayr182 - 2016-02-07
(2016-01-26, 4:55 am)vebaev Wrote: Can someone update me - I haven't visited the tread quite some time, is the new project Nayr was talking about after core 5000 is out?
Thanks for your continued interest. We are working as fast as we can, and at this stage we are hoping for an 'open beta' in around 11-12 months from now.
Sorry to keep you all waiting, but it will be worth the wait.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - shoubufuku - 2016-03-02
(2016-02-07, 5:06 am)Nayr182 Wrote:(2016-01-26, 4:55 am)vebaev Wrote: Can someone update me - I haven't visited the tread quite some time, is the new project Nayr was talking about after core 5000 is out?
Thanks for your continued interest. We are working as fast as we can, and at this stage we are hoping for an 'open beta' in around 11-12 months from now.
Sorry to keep you all waiting, but it will be worth the wait.
Thank you a lot for creating this!
If you need someone for a (closed) alpha, I volunteer
Keep up the good work
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Nayr182 - 2016-03-02
All news and updates; including times when we are looking for testers etc will be available at http://www.unlockjapanese.com
I'll be choosing testers primarily from our followers on social media, so please connect with us via Facebook and Twitter!
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - rainmaninjapan - 2016-03-02
Oh nice, Nayr has returned. It feels like the Second Coming.
I've gone halfway through your deck (after going going halfway through core 6k) and it's great. Is your thing going to be a subscription type thing that ties users to a certain site Wanikani style, or will it give control to users?
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - zodiac - 2016-03-02
Hey @Nayr182, how are you planning on producing the sentences for your unlock japanese project?
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Nayr182 - 2016-03-04
@rainmaninjapan
@zodiac
I apologise for the delayed reply,
I have added a FAQ section to the site that should answer all of your questions. However if you should have any futhur questions or queries, please feel free to email me.
www.unlockjapanese.com/#faq
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - cm2jr4 - 2016-03-14
I there a link to the Core5000 deck to use until the new project comes out.
I couldn't find one, maybe it got taken down?
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Nayr182 - 2016-03-14
(2016-03-14, 2:19 pm)cm2jr4 Wrote: I there a link to the Core5000 deck to use until the new project comes out.
I couldn't find one, maybe it got taken down?
I just added a link on page one that should work.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - rainmaninjapan - 2016-04-21
Now that I've finished the deck I'll be posting a revised edition of it within a month. Some furigana were wrong (some flat out wrong), as were some okurigana (I'm not talking about alternative okurigana of which there were many, but incorrect in a few cases). A handful of sentences are incorrect (and have audio dubbed over incorrectly, which is strange as るいい (as mispronunciation of 類い) isn't even a word, so I'll figure out a way to fix them (probably by removing the audio and using a fresh or corrected sentence). Since Nayr already went full on kanjifying lots of things which aren't usually in kanji, I also put kanji on a few things I thought could use them (stuff like すし to 寿司) and changed the kanji of others (stuff like 蠟燭 to 蝋燭).
Anonymous Core 5000 (can be found on the DJT) seems to fix at least some of the errors, but in doing so removes audio (to little purpose as the change only affects maybe 20-30 sentences out of 5000) and changes some of Nayr's handpicked sentences for the original ones from the 5k frequency book. It also lacks his kanjifications, many of which are superfluous like constant use of 下さい and 様 but others for words which seem to be written 1-2/3 of the time with kanji, so might as well be learned that way (カラスがごみをあさっている vs. 烏がゴミを漁っている for instance). I'll merge some aspects of that deck that are improvements.
Altogether there's probably only 50-100 cards that have an error of any importance, so the deck overall is fine as it is.
If Nayr sees this, I'm curious as to what your system was for kanjification. Some additions are utterly rare (various adverbs like 忽ち) and other times you seemed to refrain from using a kanjified verb form when it is reasonably common. Did you do it based on your experience as you went?
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Nayr182 - 2016-04-21
(2016-04-21, 9:02 am)rainmaninjapan Wrote: Now that I've finished the deck I'll be posting a revised edition of it within a month. Some furigana were wrong (some flat out wrong), as were some okurigana (I'm not talking about alternative okurigana of which there were many, but incorrect in a few cases). A handful of sentences are incorrect (and have audio dubbed over incorrectly, which is strange as るいい (as mispronunciation of 類い) isn't even a word, so I'll figure out a way to fix them (probably by removing the audio and using a fresh or corrected sentence). Since Nayr already went full on kanjifying lots of things which aren't usually in kanji, I also put kanji on a few things I thought could use them (stuff like すし to 寿司) and changed the kanji of others (stuff like 蠟燭 to 蝋燭).I haven't looked at this deck for quite a while, so I don't really remember all the details. We're some of the strange / rare kanji also included in the original book? My wife would have just gone through and looked for basic errors, added kanji if she felt there needed to be etc. The monotony of going through 5000 sentences means there of course is potential for error. Some inconsistencies with choosing to add kanji like 下さい or ください reflects nothing more than writers discression. Native Japanese people often choose to include / omit kanji based on what they believe looks better / feels better / laziness / etc. My wife isn't a Japanese Linguisitixs professor or anything, and there are probably lots of things that may not be 'linguistically perfect'; however are fine in basic everyday functional Japanese.
Anonymous Core 5000 (can be found on the DJT) seems to fix at least some of the errors, but in doing so removes audio (to little purpose as the change only affects maybe 20-30 sentences out of 5000) and changes some of Nayr's handpicked sentences for the original ones from the 5k frequency book. It also lacks his kanjifications, many of which are superfluous like constant use of 下さい and 様 but others for words which seem to be written 1-2/3 of the time with kanji, so might as well be learned that way (カラスがごみをあさっている vs. 烏がゴミを漁っている for instance). I'll merge some aspects of that deck that are improvements.
Altogether there's probably only 50-100 cards that have an error of any importance, so the deck overall is fine as it is.
If Nayr sees this, I'm curious as to what your system was for kanjification. Some additions are utterly rare (various adverbs like 忽ち) and other times you seemed to refrain from using a kanjified verb form when it is reasonably common. Did you do it based on your experience as you went?
Overall I doubt it hinders the Japanese learning as a whole. In short it's not perfect. I initially intended to continue revising the deck, fixing errors, furigana, kanji consistencies etc. However as I am now working on unlockjapanese.com I'll leave any new revisions of the core5000 to those who wish to do so.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - kyotokanji - 2016-04-22
Hello, So happy to be back around here again. After many years of not studying , I am delighted to return.
Just thought I would say that the link to unlockjapanese appears to create security problems. i don't know why my computer doesn't allow me enter the page. The kaspersky security stops me entering. I have 100% faith that this is an error but it may be worth looking at.
Also, I have v2.5 of the core 5000 on my anki ready to use when I finish RTK. May I ask what the logic behind the ordering of the cards is.
Cheers.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - rainmaninjapan - 2016-04-22
The 2.5 is already ordered by morphman, so it is ordered in the way that is easiest to go through with i+1 as much as possible. So card one has 1 new word, card two uses that word plus another new word and so on. If you went by frequency (the other way you can order it) you'd get a bunch of cards that use 5 new words and have a very uneven learning experience.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - kyotokanji - 2016-04-23
(2016-04-22, 4:21 pm)rainmaninjapan Wrote: The 2.5 is already ordered by morphman, so it is ordered in the way that is easiest to go through with i+1 as much as possible. So card one has 1 new word, card two uses that word plus another new word and so on. If you went by frequency (the other way you can order it) you'd get a bunch of cards that use 5 new words and have a very uneven learning experience.
Thanks for the information. That sounds like a great way to order the cards. Looking forward to going through those once RTK is finished. I have finished RTK before but burnt out near the end and didn't have a study plan prepared. I now know that the most most important thing is to start actively reading immediately. This being half my study time doing the core 5000 and half the time going through Tobira, Minna no Nihongo Chukyu I and II.
Also, thank you Nayr for putting the deck together
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - rainmaninjapan - 2016-05-01
I'm pretty much done fixing the deck, there are just 10 cards with problems left (originally more than 100 which I was able to fix unambiguously, and the 1500 formatting errors). If anyone that knows better could look this over, I'd be thankful.
Major changes (are they correct?):
4386: お好み焼きは広島と大阪が有名だ。
Okonomiyaki is famous in Hiroshima and Osaka.
Correction: Hiroshima and Osaka are famous for their okonomiyaki.
4131: 往復切符を下さい。
A return ticket, please.
Correction: A round trip ticket, please.
4430: 今月の家計は赤字なので節約しなければならない。
We must make economies because the household budget is in the red this month.
Correction:We must economize because the household budget is in the red this month.
Questionable (to me):
2479: 空き缶を足で潰す。
I squashed an empty can with my foot.
Question: Why is the Japanese in non-past but the English is in past? Is this correct?
2315: この家の主は今出掛けています。
The owner of the house has been away.
Question: Audio says 主[あるじ], but the book says it should be "主 nushi n. head, master". Is あるじ also correct?
3732: この地方では葡萄や桃等の果物の栽培が盛んだ。
Cultivation of fruits such as grapes and peaches is thriving in this region.
Question: Audio doesn't say の after 等(など), is it okay to change "等の" to "等、" with a comma, or in this case is the の required?
3688: 徳川幕府は本拠地を江戸(東京)に置いた。
The Tokugawa shogunate located their headquarters in Edo (Tokyo).
Question: Don't know what furigana to add to make it match the audio. At first I thought the audio was saying 過去東京, as in, old-time Tokyo, but now I realize it might be saying カッコ. Is this how Japanese say something is in parenthesis? (Either way it is weird for one to say "in parenthesis" rather than to use strategic pauses). The voice says 江戸、カッコ東京に置いた(without pausing after 東京). Thus, I wonder if she actually is saying 過去. Which one is more likely?
4824: 彼はその複雑な機械を三分間で組み立てることが出来る。
4718: カップにお湯を注いだ後、食べる迄三分待って下さい。
Question: In both of these, the audio pronounces さんふん instead of さんぷん. Is this a variation that exists, or is she saying it weird, or am I unable to hear it as a ぷ?
4010: 町の水道は豪雨で重大な支障をきたした。 (this is one of a handful that Nayr got from the Tanaka corpus)
The town water supply was seriously obstructed by heavy rainfalls. (Ignore the fact that it says "rainfalls")
Question: The dictionary says 来す is transitive, so why does it seem like in this sentence there should be an intransitive at the end? Is the Japanese sentence correct?
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - kyotokanji - 2016-05-02
(2016-05-01, 8:01 pm) pid=\233899' Wrote:Thanks for your hard work with this. I noticed that you corrected 1431 as stated above. However, this is simply British/American English issue. A return ticket and a round trip ticket are the same thing. A silly little point but thought I would mention it.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - creamyhorror - 2016-05-02
I finally finished this deck a few days ago, am very pleased
Thanks so much for making it, Nayr.I'm moving on to pmnox's Core 2k/6k/10k deck (using the VDRJ* frequency list to select only about 3k cards from the deck for learning). Reading is still not smooth for me because I'm still lacking a lot of vocab (am probably at 95% coverage of general material). Got to reach 15,000 words to get to 98% coverage! If anyone has an even better deck to point me to, I'm all ears.
* Vocabulary Database for Reading Japanese, a frequency list with a good balanced focus: http://forum.koohii.com/thread-11924-post-209195.html#pid209195
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - rainmaninjapan - 2016-05-02
I'm not sure core 10k is a good idea, since so much of it is news oriented words. I did about 3000 of it, and it wanted me to learn words like 爪楊枝 (toothpick) and 人参 (carrot). Even if you learned all of core 10k, you would still not know half the unique words in the book I'm reading. 6000 morphemes, and Core 10k only covers around 3000 of them, and if you did Core 10k you also learned 7141 words you didn't need (many of which you won't need for the foreseeable future... like 爪楊枝). If you're using a frequency list (or any list of words, like a list of words in a book or set of books by using cb's Japanese Text Analyzer) you can use Epwing2Anki to mass make vocabulary cards (and even automatically add example sentences from various dictionaries) tailored to what you are reading.
Or you can use Yomichan and add cards for things you're looking up as you go. Or Rikaisama.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Vempele - 2016-05-02
(2016-05-02, 4:19 pm)rainmaninjapan Wrote: (many of which you won't need for the foreseeable future... like 爪楊枝).
Heh, I have 爪楊枝 in my personal deck. The reading is non-obvious in multiple ways and the meaning doesn't follow from the kanji, I think it's worth remembering.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - creamyhorror - 2016-05-02
(2016-05-02, 4:19 pm)rainmaninjapan Wrote: I'm not sure core 10k is a good idea, since so much of it is news oriented words. I did about 3000 of it, and it wanted me to learn words like 爪楊枝 (toothpick) and 人参 (carrot). Even if you learned all of core 10k, you would still not know half the unique words in the book I'm reading. 6000 morphemes, and Core 10k only covers around 3000 of them, and if you did Core 10k you also learned 7141 words you didn't need (many of which you won't need for the foreseeable future... like 爪楊枝). If you're using a frequency list (or any list of words, like a list of words in a book or set of books by using cb's Japanese Text Analyzer) you can use Epwing2Anki to mass make vocabulary cards (and even automatically add example sentences from various dictionaries) tailored to what you are reading.Thanks for the suggestions - I already use Epwing2Anki and Rikaisama. I should have been specific - right now I'm not learning the entire Core10k, just the subset of Core 10k that is in the VDRJ's top 10k most frequent words. Plus I'm excluding the words I've learnt already from Core 5000. So it comes up to just 2.8k words, with some more that weren't matched perfectly between VDRJ and Core 10k.
Or you can use Yomichan and add cards for things you're looking up as you go. Or Rikaisama.
The benefit of learning the VDRJ's top words is that they aren't based on a newspaper corpus (like Core 10k is), but instead on general material, so the coverage is significantly more useful. The VDRJ also penalises words that are narrowly distributed across genres, so you end up learning more of the general, widely used words.
I encourage others to give the VDRJ a try, if they're looking for a frequency list. You can use Epwing2Anki to generate cards from the VDRJ list, as @rainmaninjapan said. Personally I'm using the VDRJ list sorted by the Ur1 score, which equally weights books, the Yahoo! Chiebukuro forums, and specialised texts. You can choose other rankings more suitable for JLPT learners or students studying in Japan.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Stansfield123 - 2016-05-03
I think people's choice of decks to SRS should depend on their individual goals. For instance, my goal is listening comprehension, because I want to quickly get to a stage where learning Japanese becomes effortless to the point that I can do it while relaxing. The only way to do that is to learn by listening to music, watching youtube videos, and listening to radio while exercising or playing video games. Everything else requires more time and energy than I have available, in the long term.
But to achieve that kind of listening comprehension (I set aside three months of my time to achieve this goal, after that I have to get back to other projects, and the only things I'll still be able to do in Japanese is what I listed above), I have to do some very, very different things than I would do to achieve reading comprehension for instance. For listening comprehension, I don't need a huge vocab, but I need to internalize the words and expressions I know far more thoroughly, and I need to focus on audio. So, what I'm doing is audio sentences that contain SOMETHING new. Basically, anything I'm likely to have trouble with when hearing it in live conversation, I keep around. Anything I don't think I'll have any trouble with, I deem too easy, and delete.
At the same, I try not to go past about 5000 words, in vocab acquisition...simply because you don't really need them, for listening comprehension. People don't regularly use more than the most frequent 5K words in casual conversation. I'm not saying they NEVER use them, by the way, just that it doesn't happen often enough to hinder your listening comprehension. In fact it's good that people occasionally drop fancy words into their conversations, because they allow me to progress without effort.
Using this principle, I went through Nayr's sentence deck in about six weeks, and kept about 80% of it (only got rid of stuff that was either too easy or contained words that I obviously don't need, for listening to the stuff I'm interested in...for instance, I'm not interested in Japanese politics, so I really don't care what their various bureaucratic titles and government agencies are called), and am now going through an optimized Core 10K sentence deck, but this time, I'm far more discriminating, since I already hit my goal of 5K vocab. I know 4K from Nayr, and I'm confident I know at least another 1000 from elsewhere. So, in general, unless it's a very obviously useful new word, or a really easy compound that you can pretty much guess just by hearing it, I no longer keep sentences with new vocab in them. Instead, I focus on finding sentences that use the words I've encountered before, in different contexts. Because, for listening comprehension, it's very important to not just know your core 5K words, but to know them well, in many different contexts...basically, you want to know various expressions a word is used in, not just the word itself. So you need to focus on sentence volume, not vocab volume.
For reading comprehension, on the other hand, you want to focus a lot more on Kanji vocab volume, and you need to worry less about being thorough. Also, I'm not convinced that doing huge volumes of pre-made decks is the best way to go., for a couple of reasons:
1. the quality of the decks (the quality of the sentences and translations, but, more importantly, the quality of the word and collocation selections) goes down, the bigger they are. In other words, you're liable to learn a bunch of antiquated words and ways of saying things, and even some stuff that's just plain wrong.
2. there's a great alternative: with modern technology, you can create frequency lists based on the specific materials you wish to read. So, instead of SRS-ing through Core10K (or worse, another 15K vocab after that...I imagine at that point, half of what you'd be learning is junk), you might want to create a reading list, of gradually increasing difficulty, for yourself with stuff that's available in electronic form, and SRS through the most frequent 4-5000 words in it. (the reason why you want stuff of increasing difficulty, is because you want to start reading as soon as you've added all your words in Anki, you don't want to wait until everything is reviewed thoroughly enough so that you're able to jump right into the hardest level). And then, after that, keep adding the most frequent words in stuff you plan on reading next, a month or two before you start reading it.
Of course, you can (and should) still use the sentences in the Nayr and Core decks. Reviewing bare vocab is a bad idea. But you should only review the sentences with YOUR words in them, not everything. On the rare occasion that the example sentence contains a bunch of useless vocab, then, and only then, should you fall back on SRS-ing the bare word (and even then, if you feel like copy/paste-ing, you can manually change the example sentence...Core 10K has a bunch of example sentences, so you can pick one out of those).
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Aspiring - 2016-05-10
It could be said that once you reach a certain threshold the number of words you know isn't as important as the relevance of media to your given level and that you'd be able to use your most preferred method of learning for your motives -- improving listening, reading, writing, or speaking; although it is somewhat difficult to adapt anki to all four, it is possible.
If you've gone through 2/4/6k you may watch an episode or read a novel near your level and simply add words as they come across and a sentence or two. This overemphasis on all encompassing mechanical i+1 corpus and individual sentences tends to overshadow an essential element of study, comprehensible media and not necessarily i+1 words as they don't really exist but words that seem easy to learn because you've seen their parts before and have gripping context. [ie. using Kanji Word Association Tool and parsing for unique words using Mighty morphin and Japanese Text Analysis Tool]
The threshold for simply inputting words and sentences is whenever you feel a word seems important and the context pulls you in, even if just a bit. The primary difference between the effectiveness of vanilla mined words and a pre-made corpus is a sense of novelty because the word came from something you care about. It could also be said that manually selecting from an interesting source makes the learning much easier because it's enjoyable. Find enjoyable content, input simple words, and learn quickly.
But again when you reach that threshold it might be best to manually select interesting media and simply input a word, its definition and a sentence or two; adding a word production model and scrambled gloss if needed or otherwise inputting significant grammar functions into a cloze deletion.
The key to i+1 is not to make learning [x] thousand words easily; but to create a network of knowledge which interrelate through contextual clues and deep word associations. To learn from drab sources with repetitive sentence structures sort of reduces the quality of the networked words inputted into your personal database of terms.
It could be said that even the mechanical process of creating word lists removes the novelty of finding new word associations from the source. Although less efficient, so to speak, at times it's more enjoyable to input words that seem right for the personal corpus and skip over words from sources that won't fit your current level. If too many words are skipped over the content is possibly too difficult and it might be preferable to find easier content or use the methods provided by users of this forum to parse the text.
That's not to say Core 5k or Core 10k isn't a good source; but Core should be a means to an end -- to get you to a base level that lets you learn from original and interesting content.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - wareya - 2016-05-10
Krashen said "If you give people enough comprehensible input, i+1 is there. Automatically. You don't have to worry". It's not like you're on the wrong track.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdoDTXwZVj0#t=45m
(the embedder breaks for me so I can't check if the timestamp works with it, so I broke the embed)
I'm still a huge proponent for memorizing important things that are hard to learn when you can't read (like the most common words in the domain of material you want to consume), because it makes stepping into comprehensible input a lot easier. Just to get where you can actually read good content.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - rainmaninjapan - 2016-05-11
Here's my updated version for now.
https://mega.nz/#!dgZSwYzD!1ntDq0I_P-5s8sqnwyolXohH6HRvdUnde2jiQuBEL7U
http://www.mediafire.com/download/gkbvj56fl6vg959/Nayr%27s_Core_5k_3.1.apkg
I've went through the entire deck and fixed various errors (and added various improvements like commas after ため, など etc. if they were warranted) as I went. There were probably 20 major errors, plus tons of furigana bugs (like 一 日[にち] when it should've been 一日[ついたち] for example). I removed/replaced a few exceptionally rare kanji (壺 to 壷, 蠟燭 to 蝋燭, 齎す to もたらす), and adding some kanji in places where the context is correct and their use are reasonably common (I checked lots of example usages to do this).
I'm now going through the listening comprehension cards and will upload another update in a month or two if I find any other errors or discrepancies in the audio. Since some of the sentences are not i+1 I automatically added sentence glosses that capture most of the words in each sentence, so you don't have to use a dictionary as much.
The cards have been sorted by morphman with the assumption that you know all the vocabulary in Genki I and II, and comprehend the 500 most frequent words. After the first 500 cards, it becomes as i+1 as it can (until the last 100 cards or so, when you'll need the sentence glosses).
Change "myfont" to whatever font you want to use (for some reason it won't upload with the apkg, so here's a link to the one I use). Put it in your media collection folder.
http://www.myfontfree.com/ms-mincho-myfontfreecom126f37287.htm
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - Robik - 2016-05-11
Thanks.
Now I have to figure out, how to import updated deck and not loose progress I made in the original version.
I think there is no way to do that though, without some unique sentence identifier... oh well.
RE: Nayr's Core5000 deck (Frequency Dictionary of Japanese) - rainmaninjapan - 2016-05-11
I thought about that. It's actually easy, because all of the sound files are unique. Here is the field order you need:
Sound
Expression
Meaning
Reading
English Translation
Word
Frequency Order
Gloss
Then just set it so that "if first field matches overwrite/update".