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+--- Thread: Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? (/thread-12031.html)
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - PotbellyPig - 2014-08-03
I'm not in Japan so I don't need to write kanji but I find it fun. It also seems to be easier and faster to recognize the different kanji if you know how to write them.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - ariariari - 2014-08-03
yudantaiteki Wrote:That cracked me up. I'm assuming here that your PhD is in JapaneseQuote:you cannot claim fluencyI've failed definitions of "fluency" on this board about 15 times but I've still managed to get a PhD.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - yudantaiteki - 2014-08-03
ariariari Wrote:I'm really just going off the title of the book here: "Remebering the Kanji 1: A Complete Course on How Not to Forget the Meaning and Writing of Japanese Characters". Looking at the copyright in the book, it was first published in 1977, long before so much writing was done via computer. Times have changed, and as I embark on what seems to be a very time consuming self-study course, I thought to ask the hard question: so what? You say you can teach me to write the kanji by hand, but I'm not sure that I really need that. What other benefits does your course offer?One possibility is to try "RTK Lite" that has been suggested in the past. I didn't use RTK so I can't personally vouch for any particular study method or approach but maybe the topic can get back on track.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - sholum - 2014-08-03
yudantaiteki Wrote:One possibility is to try "RTK Lite" that has been suggested in the past. I didn't use RTK so I can't personally vouch for any particular study method or approach but maybe the topic can get back on track.If I remember correctly, RTK Lite is only the 1000 'most common' kanji (I can't think of too many 常用漢字 that are particularly uncommon, though I'm sure there are a few); I haven't used the deck myself, though, so I can't say if it's any nicer than the other RTK decks available (I used Lazy Kanji mod).
Anyway, even for recognition, I always suggest looking at the book, though unless one wants to practice writing at some point, I'd recommend just borrowing it from the library.
I read through the 'theory' portions of the book, got used to the idea of 'primitives', and looked through each lesson. I only bothered writing out the ones that I really had trouble with (my finger sufficed for the simpler/easier ones). I feel that this helped me to distinguish the kanji much more easily.
Saying that, I can't say that any one method of learning to distinguish kanji works better than any other, but I think that that's the most important part for most learners and the whole point of doing RTK before really getting into vocabulary.
Do I ever write by hand? No, not unless I want to play around or label CDs for the car (I can't stand writing in romaji when writing Japanese, for aesthetic reasons; 六三四 just looks better than just 'Musashi' and distinguishes the band from the personal name). When I do write, I usually just type it on my phone or computer and copy it if I can't remember the kanji (stroke order is usually straight forward, sometimes I have to look it up, though).
Of course, I neither live in Japan nor use Japanese in any business setting, so my usage patterns may not be useful to your decision.
Learning to write kanji is rewarding in its own way, but I don't think it's particularly useful for most learners early on. If you think it's conducive to your speedy acquisition of new vocabulary (some people benefit from writing words more than others), then go for it, otherwise don't worry about it.
EDIT: 'Or' and 'nor' aren't the same thing.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - ariariari - 2014-08-03
@Sholum Thanks for the thoughtful answer. It's very helpful to me and, together with the other answers, has convinced me that this system is indeed worth pursuing.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - yudantaiteki - 2014-08-03
sholum Wrote:I think it's based on the JLPT 2 list. The idea is not that those ~1000 kanji are all you ever need, but that it more quickly gets you to a point where you can start learning Japanese, and if you want to you can always go back and do the rest of the RTK 1 kanji. The Reviewing the Hanzi book uses this idea, splitting volume 1 and 2 based on frequency and letting you do just 1, 1 then 2, or 1 and 2 at the same time.yudantaiteki Wrote:One possibility is to try "RTK Lite" that has been suggested in the past. I didn't use RTK so I can't personally vouch for any particular study method or approach but maybe the topic can get back on track.If I remember correctly, RTK Lite is only the 1000 'most common' kanji (I can't think of too many 常用漢字 that are particularly uncommon, though I'm sure there are a few);
Just looking at the beginning of the list, here are some kanji on the Joyo list that are uncommon or rare in things I read (this is not to say they don't occur or you don't need to learn them, just that they aren't what I would consider common):
亜挨曖宛尉萎彙慰緯壱茨姻淫韻唄鬱畝疫謁閲怨猿
A lot of the less common kanji have only a couple of words that they appear in, and if whatever you read doesn't have those words then you'll never see them.
If you're talking about truly rare kanji that you might never see outside of a textbook or kanji list, there are only a handful on the Joyo list.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - ariariari - 2014-08-03
The RTK lite thing sounds like a good idea. I've never heard of it before though. It sounds like an "unofficial" thing, though - like, Heisig didn't publish a book on it. Is that correct? When I look online I can't find anything on it that seems authoritative.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - vix86 - 2014-08-03
RTK lite is a list that someone constructed from out of the RTK.
The RTK1 contains the entire jouyou kanji (plus recent additions). Some people find the amount of kanji to cover in the book daunting and prefer a more condensed set of kanji to study which provide more bang for your buck, so to speak. Some of the jouyou kanji don't appear all that often so some argue its not worth putting a whole lot of time into remembering/memorizing them.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - sholum - 2014-08-03
@yudantaiteki
I probably should have used 'rare' instead of 'uncommon', but I can say that of those you listed, I've seen several multiple times in texts (enough to recognize them), but they are indeed 'uncommon' to me.
Thanks for the information.
@ariariari
If you like the idea, you could always just use the list from the deck and study it using the book. Personally, I figured that I might as well go through the whole Jouyou list, since I was being lazy about it anyways, but if you're planning to study more seriously, RTK Lite might be a good option.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - ariariari - 2014-08-03
Thanks. I think that for now I'll stick with doing the "standard" RTK. It might take me a while, but I found the introduction to the book so persuasive that I feel like it's worth the time. I have a lot of other things besides the kanji that require my time, so I don't think that I'll be able to swing anything close to the 6 week completion date that some people here have reported. But each frame by itself has value, so I don't feel that there's any need to rush to the end. And I have Anki to help me retain each frame I add.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - NightSky - 2014-08-04
I've only skimmed the thread, but it seems funny to me how the more experienced hands seem to think being able to write is not so important, whereas the beginners think its extremely important. At least that was my quick impression, I could be wrong.
For me I've almost never had to write anything by hand. The only times I've ever really had to write anything are forms at the bank.
And in those cases I just ask if the teller (or whoever) would mind writing it out since my handwriting is very untidy. They say yes and then the job is done. Of course its not nice having to ask for help for something which is otherwise so basic, but this situation comes up not very often, and I can't justify spending 3-6 months practicing writing to get to a level where its easy. I'd rather spend that time improving the rest of my Japanese that I need to use constantly.
And as someone else said, you can just write out on your phone and then copy it if you have to otherwise. That is probably the best strategy, as it shouldn't take too much study time to know how the characters fit together and to feel more comfortable with stroke order. I'd quite like to take some classes at some point to make my handwriting nicer ... but just can't make it a priority.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - RawToast - 2014-08-04
Here's a spanner for the works. I never bothered to learn how to write either kana set -- it never bothered me when doing vocab/grammar flashcards, reading, or now as I used lang8.
All I did was complete both kana courses on iknow -- no writing required. I never SRSed them afterwards since they're all in Core anyway!
Before anyone tries to convert me, I started learning to write the kana yesterday. I plan on going to some university evening classes starting at the end of September, so I assume writing is to be expected. Probably will have to learn to produce a few hundred Kanji, but that shouldn't be difficult.
Quote:RTK lite is a list that someone constructed from out of the RTK.I competed RTK lite as a recognition deck. I believe it should be all the Kanji upto JLPT N2 and a few single keyword Kanji/radicals to aid with some of the cards. My deck comes to ~1,100 cards. There are decks on Ankiweb and should be one on here too.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - cophnia61 - 2014-08-04
As a beginner my main concern is if learning to write is going to help me assimilate vocabulary in a better way, but as some said to me in another thread, is this advantage worthwhile the extra time and effort needed? To gain confidence in kanji one can simply copy the words as he does his anki reviews, maybe this is enough to learn to notice the details and to distinguish better the similar kanji... also as the other said, one thing is the capability to write kanji in isolation (RtK does help in this), another thing is to be capable to write actual words, and this need way more than 6 months, imho...
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - Helltrixz - 2014-08-04
So I had a look right now - I filled out 65 A4 pages with kanji to properly learn the stroke order of the 2200 rtk1 kanji.
I reckon this is doable in a week?
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - Vempele - 2014-08-04
Helltrixz Wrote:I reckon this is doable in a week?uisukii did it in two (though only 2042 kanji, I think), sounds plausible.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - vosmiura - 2014-08-04
NightSky Wrote:I've only skimmed the thread, but it seems funny to me how the more experienced hands seem to think being able to write is not so important, whereas the beginners think its extremely important. At least that was my quick impression, I could be wrong.I think you're right. I see some points like "How could you claim to really know something if you don't know how to write it?" and I think I felt the same after finishing RTK.
Actually you don't need to be able to write what you can read. Those who never did RTK can tell you that. Those who did RTK and then forgot a lot of it (like me) can tell you, you can recognize many kanji distinctly even if you forgot how to write them. Also even if I know how to write all the kanji, I often wouldn't remember which kanji to write.
Being able to write requires much more kanji study than RTK; knowing how to write individual kanji is 5 or 10% of the problem give or take.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - znebr47625 - 2014-08-04
ariariari Wrote:I bet he thought ''I always wanted to say that.''yudantaiteki Wrote:That cracked me up. I'm assuming here that your PhD is in JapaneseQuote:you cannot claim fluencyI've failed definitions of "fluency" on this board about 15 times but I've still managed to get a PhD.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - Vempele - 2014-08-04
NightSky Wrote:I've only skimmed the thread, but it seems funny to me how the more experienced hands seem to think being able to write is not so important, whereas the beginners think its extremely important. At least that was my quick impression, I could be wrong.I remember thinking in kindergarten that being able to read was equivalent to being able to write. I couldn't do either yet but I could name and - of course - write the individual characters.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - CharleyGarrett - 2014-08-04
I'll merely observe that if you are familiar with how the kanji are written, then when reading your friend's handwriting, sometimes you can see what they meant from subtle clues based on stroke order and so forth. Also, your handwriting may also include somewhat some of those nuances that can help your friends recognize what you were trying to write.
So, I do try to write my kanji as I go thru the testing for remembering the kanji, and I do try to do it with the correct stroke order, direction and so forth. Also, where a "font" changes how the kanji is written, I try to stick with the handwritten forms.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - znebr47625 - 2014-08-04
Vempele Wrote:Sounds like a lot to be done in the given amount of time, but not as painful as learning 漢字 with those guys:Helltrixz Wrote:I reckon this is doable in a week?uisukii did it in two (though only 2042 kanji, I think), sounds plausible.
But still a lot of work.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - Arupan - 2014-08-04
NightSky Wrote:I've only skimmed the thread, but it seems funny to me how the more experienced hands seem to think being able to write is not so important, whereas the beginners think its extremely important. At least that was my quick impression, I could be wrong.I don't think experience has anything to do with it. It's more like what you do for a living in my opinion. As Ash_S stated, I would've also been at a serious disadvantage if I didn't know how to write (compound) words properly.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - yudantaiteki - 2014-08-04
Arupan Wrote:It's more like what you do for a living in my opinion.That's the main thing.
A lot of people will need some level of handwriting ability, but very few foreigners will ever need active command of the writing of all the kanji in RTK 1. I'm not even sure there are that many native speakers who need that level of writing ability.
Having said that, if you enjoy learning to write the kanji, go for it! You can be like erlog and others and pass high levels of Kanken.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - NightSky - 2014-08-05
yudantaiteki Wrote:Yep, well said.Arupan Wrote:It's more like what you do for a living in my opinion.That's the main thing.
A lot of people will need some level of handwriting ability, but very few foreigners will ever need active command of the writing of all the kanji in RTK 1. I'm not even sure there are that many native speakers who need that level of writing ability.
Having said that, if you enjoy learning to write the kanji, go for it! You can be like erlog and others and pass high levels of Kanken.
There's definitely no *harm* in learning to write Kanji by hand if its something you enjoy, so why not. But it is far from necessary as part of a strategy to learn Japanese well. Its too much of a time sink.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - Arupan - 2014-08-05
There's also no harm in stating your opinion, but saying that kanji "is far from necessary as part of a strategy to learn Japanese well" is going a bit too far, I think. Writing with a pen actually reinforces memory.
Why bother to learn to write the kanji by hand? - NightSky - 2014-08-05
So what you are saying is it *is* necessary to spend the time learning how to write by hand in order to learn Japanese well?