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+--- Thread: Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? (/thread-11820.html)
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - john555 - 2014-05-11
First, apologies for using kunrei-siki romaji. I can't type in kana/kanji yet on my computer. I'm copying from the romaji transcription in my Japanese reader.
Anyway, I'll give the Japanese and then the translation per the notes and key. What I don't understand is the precise function of "to wa" after "hito":
"Akiyama-san wa koo yuu gunzin no katei ni umareta hito to wa omowarenai seisitu o motte imasu."
Translation per the key: "Mr. Akiyama has a temperament that is unexpected in a person born to a military family of this kind."
Per the Notes: "hito to wa omowarenai seisitu: "a character which is not thought of as (that of) a person..."
Can someone maybe offer a more explicit/clear explanation than the note in my textbook gives? Note that there are two "wa's", one after Akiyama-san and the other after hito to.
Thanks in advance.
Just to give some context, in this reading passage Mr. Akiyama is an artist who paints pictures of scenery. The story described how his grandfather, in the war, personally killed ten men on an enemy island. Therefore, Mr. Akiyama's "temperament is unexpected...etc." This book is a bit old and heavy-handed but I like it because it's challenging (at least for me).
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - Zgarbas - 2014-05-11
とは expresses surprise or emotion regarding the previous statement.
[X]とは[Y] (Y being surprise, sadness, didn't think, didn't expect, etc)
I didn't think that X would happen. Xが起こるとは思わなかった。
Surprisingly cheap. 安いとは驚きだ。
Given how [Akiyama is born into a military family] it is surprising [that Akiyama has a surprising temperament]
Hope this helps =)
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - yudantaiteki - 2014-05-11
From a more general grammatical standpoint, this is using the は particle to show contrast. Although in many cases with negative predicates it's just used even when there's no strong contrastive meaning.
EDIT: I'm not sure it always shows surprise or emotion -- if it's something like おいしいとは思わないけど、食べられる there's no real surprise there, it's just saying you don't go so far as to think it's delicious.
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - Sebastian - 2014-05-11
You can input Japanese from any computer, even if you don't have Japanese support installed.
Try something like this:
Input King
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - howtwosavealif3 - 2014-05-11
that textbook sounds sucky with its explanation. i feel your pain.
"Akiyama-san wa koo yuu gunzin no katei ni umareta hito to wa omowarenai seisitu o motte imasu."
"Mr. Akiyama has a temperament that is unexpected in a person born to a military family of this kind."
what exact part do you want an explantion for ? It's not like you don't understand the whole thing right?
do you understand this part? Akiyama-san wa koo yuu gunzin no katei ni umareta hito
do you understand ( RANDOM noun) + to wa omowarenai seishitsu
and to wa doesn't necessarily express surprise like the other person said...
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - john555 - 2014-05-12
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:that textbook sounds sucky with its explanation. i feel your pain.I understand completely the first part "Akiyama-san wa...umareta hito". The part I'm struggling with is what the "to wa" means in "to wa omowarenai seisitu".
"Akiyama-san wa koo yuu gunzin no katei ni umareta hito to wa omowarenai seisitu o motte imasu."
"Mr. Akiyama has a temperament that is unexpected in a person born to a military family of this kind."
what exact part do you want an explantion for ? It's not like you don't understand the whole thing right?
do you understand this part? Akiyama-san wa koo yuu gunzin no katei ni umareta hito
do you understand ( RANDOM noun) + to wa omowarenai seishitsu
and to wa doesn't necessarily express surprise like the other person said...
I guess maybe I just have to learn it as an idiomatic sentence pattern using "to wa".
So maybe it's best learned by examples. Does the following make sense:
"The book is of a surprising/unexpected size": (say a romance paperback of a 1,000 pages):
Hon to wa omowarenai ookisa o motte imasu.
Thanks.
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - yudantaiteki - 2014-05-12
I don't like the explanation that とは shows surprise. It is true that in this specific example it does express something that is unexpected, but that isn't really an essential function of とは. This is simply particle と + particle は. The と is the usual quoting particle that goes with 思う, 言う, and other verbs of that nature. The は is frequently used with negatives. Sometimes that's really all you have to know -- I think in this case it's fine to just say "they're using は because it's negative."
EDIT: I had originally talked about your sentence but I'm not confident in my explanation; I know that を持っている is used in some cases where it doesn't refer to literally owning or holding something, but I don't know about the usages well enough to comment on your sentence. I had initially said your sentence was wrong but after looking at google hits it's possible that it works.
Maybe we're not focusing on the aspect of the sentence you don't understand -- is it specifically the は particle? Or the は particle being used in conjunction with other particles? Are you handling the nested modifiers in the sentence OK?
Can someone help me understand the grammar of this? - Dustin_Calgary - 2014-05-12
yudantaiteki is correct.
Straight out of my grammar book:
"とは" is commonly used with the negative forms of verbs that occur with quoted speech, ( as with the verbs 思う and 言う )
However, とは is also used to present an event, action or state which is unexpected and causes the speaker/writer to have such feelings as surprise, happiness, sadness, anger or regret.
DOAJG, pg 663