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Fluent like a Mormon missionary - mtb812 - 2014-04-30

It's probably a big secret that you will go straight to one of the hells for sharing, but how do the Mormon missionaries learn Japanese? All the Japanese I know are always amazed that the Western Mormon missionaries speak completely fluent Japanese. Sometimes they can't even tell they are a foreigner.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - yudantaiteki - 2014-04-30

BYU has a pretty good Japanese program.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Sauzer - 2014-04-30

The answer as I understand is that they actually study. However anecdotally the east asian historian at my school was a mormon missionary (and former JET for that matter), and his was pretty rough...

But no actually, the real reason is the magic underpants

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - nadiatims - 2014-04-30

I imagine they well and truly memorise their holy book and then get endless practice discussing it and answering questions about it with whoever actually opens the door(bored housewives I imagine).

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Zgarbas - 2014-04-30

I think that once your start considering language learning a holy task you get really serious about it *shrug*

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - dtcamero - 2014-04-30

it's not so hard to seem fluent within one specific field of expertise...
the evangelical conversations are pretty predictable I imagine.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Stansfield123 - 2014-05-01

Same reason why they're good at everything else they do. Mormons have a great work ethic: http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/Work,_Role_of
There's actually a commandment that reads : "Six days shalt thou labour" (Ex. 20:9).
Quote:Other scriptures explain that life is to be a rhythm of work and worship (Ex. 31:15; Neh. 13:15-22).

Latter-day Saints do not view work as drudgery, as though its only purpose is to sustain life. Although the use of technological equipment and labor-saving devices is encouraged, their value lies in making work more efficient, not in eliminating it. Work is the natural lot of all people, and they are enjoined to be diligent in their labors (Prov. 6:6-8; 1 Thes. 4:11; 2 Thes. 3:10-15).

....
Individuals are encouraged to work with a happy, cheerful attitude. "Learn to like your work. Learn to say, "This is my work, my glory, not my doom' " (McKay, p. 4). Enthusiasm for labor is especially extolled in such LDS hymns as "Today, While the Sun Shines," "Improve the Shining Moments," "Let Us All Press On," "I Have Work Enough to Do," and "Put Your Shoulder to the Wheel."

Work can also serve as a rehabilitative or therapeutic activity. The apostle Paul directed, "Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands" (Eph. 4:28).

etc., etc.
They also don't drink. I bet that helps with the ol' memory.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - DrJones - 2014-05-01

From sociologic studies I've read, religious folk have been raised to practice commitment everyday. So, it's not just the mormons.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - qwertyytrewq - 2014-05-01

Stansfield123 Wrote:Same reason why they're good at everything else they do. Mormons have a great work ethic
Isn't that racist?

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Vempele - 2014-05-01

Since when are Mormons a race?

Also, attempting to convert other people to one's race strikes me as racist.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Stansfield123 - 2014-05-01

qwertyytrewq Wrote:
Stansfield123 Wrote:Same reason why they're good at everything else they do. Mormons have a great work ethic
Isn't that racist?
No. Racism is stupid. For one, there are no significant differences among the so-called races (mostly just skin color, really), so racists mostly make them up, and second, skin color isn't chosen, so judging someone for it is unfair (except for gingers, they're the devil).

On the other hand, I will proudly judge religions and belief systems in general on their merits, and call them either good or bad names as warranted. Besides, this is one of those rare occasions where I actually had something positive to say about a religion.

There's a world of difference between generalizing based on race, and generalizing based on a common belief system. A belief system warrants all kinds of perfectly rational and deserved generalizations, because a person's beliefs are what inform their behavior. And if you don't judge someone by their behavior, what are you gonna judge them by?

In fact, by asking "isn't that racist", you are assuming a generalization about a belief system (you are correctly assuming that racism is bad). Why can't I correctly assume that the aspect of Mormonism that teaches its adherents to work hard is good?

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Splatted - 2014-05-01

Stansfield123 Wrote:skin color isn't chosen, so judging someone for it is unfair (except for gingers, they're the devil).
Who has ginger skin? :o

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - qwertyytrewq - 2014-05-01

Stansfield123 Wrote:Why can't I correctly assume that the aspect of Mormonism that teaches its adherents to work hard is good?
To be more precise, you are engaging in positive "racism" (it's not a generalization based on race but a generalization nonetheless). Saying that the "Mormon belief teaching hard work is good" is different from saying "Mormons have a great work ethic." The former is more acceptable than the other. Have you considered the feelings of Mormons who DON'T have a great, or even good work ethic, or Magic Underpants-forbid, have a bad work ethic?

It's like saying Asians are good at math or the "Asian" "culture" promotes proficiency of math but what about the Asians who aren't good at math?

You're a libertarian. Culture and beliefs are nice and all, but at the end of the day, isn't it the individual (EG. there are Mormons who have good work ethics and there are Mormons who have bad work ethics) that counts?

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - EratiK - 2014-05-01

Can't you use the word discrimination? I'm not a native but it really confuses me why would anyone use the word racism outside of race issues. Discriminations of all sorts are bad, but I think a word like racist shouldn't be used it about beliefs, social categories or any other unrelated concepts. And there are alternatives: bigoted, prejudiced...

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Woodgar - 2014-05-01

qwertyytrewq Wrote:It's like saying Asians are good at math or the "Asian" "culture" promotes proficiency of math but what about the Asians who aren't good at math?

You're a libertarian. Culture and beliefs are nice and all, but at the end of the day, isn't it the individual (EG. there are Mormons who have good work ethics and there are Mormons who have bad work ethics) that counts?
No one gets to choose their race, but they do get to choose which clubs they belong to.

If the club promotes a great work ethic, then the members of the club who don't have a great work ethic are bad members of the club, irrespective of their feelings.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Stansfield123 - 2014-05-01

qwertyytrewq Wrote:To be more precise, you are engaging in positive "racism" (it's not a generalization based on race but a generalization nonetheless).
The reason why I didn't explicitly point out that Mormonism is not a race before is because someone beat me to it. But it's not, so you're not being precise by calling a generalization about Mormons racism.

Yes, I understand why saying that whites are the best race in the world is just as racist as saying that blacks are not. No need to explain that being "positive" about a race is racism. However, if you still plan to insist on calling it that, you really should explain why generalizing about a religion is racism.
qwertyytrewq Wrote:You're a libertarian. Culture and beliefs are nice and all, but at the end of the day, isn't it the individual (EG. there are Mormons who have good work ethics and there are Mormons who have bad work ethics) that counts?
I'm an individualist (I won't cop to being a libertarian, because there are way too many dumb ones, and I have no desire to be associated with them). But individualism isn't the rejection of abstract thought, it IS a generalization: it's the identification of a very general fact about ALL MEN (that they're independent entities, who possess the right to stay that way). That's about as big a generalization as it gets.

I don't reject racism because it's a generalization, I reject it because it's a wrong generalization.

But, if done following the rules of logic, I love generalizations. They're the foundation for all human knowledge. They're why cars go hundreds of miles an hour, they're why planes fly, they're why we are trying to abolish slavery, they're why we can so often stay alive for 80 years or more, etc., etc. The last thing I want is to denounce generalizations, about any area of human thought, including the subject at hand.
qwertyytrewq Wrote:(EG. there are Mormons who have good work ethics and there are Mormons who have bad work ethics)
There are bad Mormons who have bad work Ethic. But the ones who take the teachings of their religion seriously ALL work their asses off.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Aspiring - 2014-05-01

According to a Mormon friend back in high school, many Mormons go on a mission trip after senior year (volunteering, getting life experience)

They raise enough money by graduation and enter a volunteer program abroad.
In my view, they're normal people with incredible support groups / a lot of accountability.

They go to a foreign country where there's a really good program set up, with parents/leaders that offer their supoprt and commitment. They spend the year (or two?) volunteering, studying, and working with natives.

(Peace Corps comes to mind)

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Thequadehunter - 2014-05-01




Napolean Dynamite "learned" the language for a mission trip. Lmfao.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Dustin_Calgary - 2014-05-01

Aspiring Wrote:According to a Mormon friend back in high school, many Mormons go on a mission trip after senior year (volunteering, getting life experience)

They raise enough money by graduation and enter a volunteer program abroad.
In my view, they're normal people with incredible support groups / a lot of accountability.

They go to a foreign country where there's a really good program set up, with parents/leaders that offer their supoprt and commitment. They spend the year (or two?) volunteering, studying, and working with natives.

(Peace Corps comes to mind)
From what I understand, while on their mission, there is very little contact with the outside world other than in the context of their actual witnessing.

No internet, almost no contact with home, etc.

As a result, virtually all of their time is spent on that which would benefit their mission, whether it's studying their language, improving their witnessing techniques etc.

I don't know if they're all this strict, or if the ones I knew are a subset, but it wouldn't be a surprise with the motivation and time they have, for them to become well versed in another language.

I also just happen to have a japanese book of mormon as well. I had a japanese room-mate that was in contact with some local missionaries.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - afterglowefx - 2014-05-01

Another factor you should probably be considering is just who says they're really good at Japanese? If you're talking to non-Japanese, the standards are fairly low. Not too many people hit a decent level of fluency and if you can barely speak the language anybody can look decently good from your uneducated point of view.

If you're talking to actual Japanese it's even worse, because Japanese are so easily impressed by anybody doing anything Japan-related that with even the smallest modicum of skill you'll be praised as a master.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - Dustin_Calgary - 2014-05-01

afterglowefx Wrote:Another factor you should probably be considering is just who says they're really good at Japanese? If you're talking to non-Japanese, the standards are fairly low. Not too many people hit a decent level of fluency and if you can barely speak the language anybody can look decently good from your uneducated point of view.

If you're talking to actual Japanese it's even worse, because Japanese are so easily impressed by anybody doing anything Japan-related that with even the smallest modicum of skill you'll be praised as a master.
For this reason I always have to take any praise of skill with a grain of salt.

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - john555 - 2014-05-01

Maybe the Golden Plates that Joseph Smith found (and were somehow lost) were written in kanji!

Fluent like a Mormon missionary - erlog - 2014-05-02

1) They work closely with native speakers on their mission.
2) It's their job to talk to native speakers every day about their religion.
3) They study.
4) They have the luxury of a very strong local and global support network. This means they're not as stressed out about life essentials.

dtcamero Wrote:it's not so hard to seem fluent within one specific field of expertise...
the evangelical conversations are pretty predictable I imagine.
#2 is probably the biggest factor. I'm an English teacher in Japan right now, and this is my 3rd year. If I am in a classroom doing my lesson and talking to students about English then I come off as fluent. I can speak Japanese very easily in that situation without thinking about it at all. I listen to what the native speakers say to students about things. I mirror it. I modify it. I have spent many many hours in a classroom by myself and also doing team teaching.

When it comes to talking about current events with Japanese friends? That's an uphill struggle that takes lots of time, ends with me usually imparting my point, but never in a way that feels natural or satisfying to me at all.

I bet these Mormons have a similar sort of thing with their proselytizing. That's not to say it doesn't take a lot of work to get there, but that "overall fluency" isn't really a thing that makes sense. In specific domains it makes sense to talk about, but not overall.

The only "free lunch" in language learning is growing up bilingual from childhood. After that it's all about a) study b) practice c) specializing in a domain.