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+--- Thread: Looking for more "native" way to learn vocab (/thread-11753.html)
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Looking for more "native" way to learn vocab - kazuki - 2014-04-16
Thanks guys. The immersing definitely wasn't a complete waste. But it really does just seem like my brain tuned a majority of it out even when actively trying to get something out of it... it's not fair! I haven't done any of that for a little while now and I feel like I'm on a much more friendly basis with Japanese when I don't feel bad that I'm not forcing it down my own throat. The "immersion" is not something that's on in the background or any of that anymore.. it's something that I'm doing intentionally because I do understand 90% or more of it. Aside from music of course, I did take a liking to some Japanese artists.
Then there's intensive (reading?) sessions where I'm dismal, like under 60% comprehension... maybe it's too hard to even have an intensive session with but I think I can learn something from anything that's interesting to me. That's what a lot of FFXIV:ARR was like for a good portion of the questing... not to mention being unable to guess the readings or meanings for a good portion of the proper nouns... annoying! At 60% comprehension, it's hard to make that last for more than 10 or 15 minutes at a time though.
But to answer your question Ryuudou, I played ARR mostly in English. I flip back and forth to Japanese every now and again to see how my deliberate studying might be paying off, and to see how far I can get along without getting annoyed by it
But deliberate study sessions in FFXIV seem to go very slowly, and even identifying recurring words that seem to be of value is difficult when comprehension is so bad at times.I was trying to get a feel of how you guys comprehended it. When I play it in English, it seems like it would be incredibly difficult for someone learning English who isn't already QUITE advanced. I was assuming the Japanese was similar.
Looking for more "native" way to learn vocab - albion - 2014-04-16
I only played the beta of ARR so far, but didn't struggle with quests and such. The main thing I remember being difficult was reading the non-essential vocab, I think. Like I knew what the item being talked about was, but not how it was described. (Can't think of a real example but to make one up I knew, if someone asked for a 'vermilion crest', what a 'crest' was but maybe not how to read/the meaning of 'vermilion', even though I'd be able to recognise it when I saw it and could follow the instructions to find it.) I recorded what I played, and probably should go look through what I got again to check it out. But I probably would say it's best used at a higher level (where you can get through the game with little difficulty even if you don't get the entire flavour of what's been said), though I guess that depends on your tolerance. Or if you can switch the language while playing, then maybe getting a bit of exposure to work with and then switching back to a language you can understand.
I know 'as much [passive] immersion as possible' is a popular mindset with some person, but I think the time might be better spend actively studying. Use passive immersion as a kind of test to see how you're going, but if it feels like you're not getting much out of it I don't see how doing some studying on things you don't know is a bad thing.
Looking for more "native" way to learn vocab - kazuki - 2014-04-17
Following the quests markers and such isn't so hard but my tolerance is pretty low for doing things when I'm not fairly sure what the goal is. That said, it's probably a good idea to build up that tolerance because there is a fair amount that is understandable. I guess I would like to be able to get the same type of flavor or nuance from NPC's in JP as I do in EN. Here is an example of a quest in both the English and the Japanese text.
Stone Torch: An adventurer? Baseless rumors notwithstanding, I can assure you that your meager talents are not needed here. No hecatoncheires have returned to the mines, and even if they had, the Stone Torches would be seeing to the threat swiftly and ably, as is our wont...hm?
Stone Torch: Ahem. I know not what you just heard, but it was most certainly not the tortured scream of some unfortunate miner being consigned to the maw of a bloodthirsty giant birthed from the godsforsaken depths.
Stone Torch: ...Ah, seven hells! It's true, all of it! We thought we had seen the last of them, but we were wrong! Horribly, dreadfully wrong! Let down our guard, we did, and now Copperbell is overrun with a damned legion of the fiends, each one nastier than the last.
Stone Torch: We've already lost scores of our men to the chaos. The few that have returned alive claim that even the once-docile spriggans have gone mad, falling upon the poor miners in droves. So much for being harbingers of wealth and fortune, eh?
Stone Torch: The Stone Torches are loath to lean on the strength of outsiders, but I cannot in good conscience place fool pride before the lives of good men any longer.
Stone Torch: You reclaimed these mines once. The Torches─nay, the entire nation of Ul'dah─would be forever in your debt if you could perform the deed again. I beg of you, friend: banish those fiends to the depths, that they may never resurface.
鉄灯団の衛兵 : おおっ、君はかつてカッパーベル銅山を救ってくれた……！しかして噂を聞きつけて、駆けつけてくれたのか！？
鉄灯団の衛兵 : うむ、実は……君の活躍により制圧されたはずの巨人、「ヘカトンケイレス族」に生き残りがいたらしく、再びカッパーベル銅山の坑道に巨人が現れたのだ。
鉄灯団の衛兵 : 再開発の調査のために入山していた、採掘師たちが襲われた。巨人から逃げのびた生存者は、ほとんどいない……。
鉄灯団の衛兵 : 数少ない生存者の話では、巨人どもだけでなく、鉱石泥棒のスプリガンまで便乗して暴れているのだという。このままでは、銅山の存続すら危うい状況だ。
鉄灯団の衛兵 : 情けない話だが、我々鉄灯団の戦力では、とても坑道内の巨人どもを鎮圧することはできない。
鉄灯団の衛兵 : 事ここに至っては、かつてヘカトンケイレス族を制し、カッパーベル銅山を攻略した君の力に頼るしかない……！どうかもう一度、巨人どもから銅山を解放してくれ！
To my untrained eye I'm not sure that the flavor is as strong in the Japanese text. In addition, the English text even contains a fair amount of words that one doesn't encounter on a daily basis and probably isn't in most peoples' active vocabulary pools. This is the case for most fiction probably, especially in the fantasy genre. But it makes even the English version somewhat of a chore to read sometimes when all of the text in the game is written in this style. I'm pretty sure most players ignore most of the quest or flavor text in the game. I personally enjoy it, but it just stops the fast-paced nature of the game so it's hard to switch gears sometimes.
My goal is to be able to recognize and get a general feel for the words used in the Japanese text, not necessarily know solid translations/definitions. So, I'm not completely sure how to approach that in Anki, when it comes to grading cards and such.
For those more advanced in their studies, do you read the Japanese text without issue? And, which words do you just glance over knowing mostly what the word is about, but not necessarily knowing a solid definition, if there are any like that at all in the Japanese text?
Looking for more "native" way to learn vocab - albion - 2014-04-17
I would say the English text is harder than the Japanese one. In some ways they might have been overdoing it a bit in English (added the whole 'exaggerated ignorance/covering up the problem' in the first lines). The Japanese texts looks a lot more to the point, in my eyes.
The only words that I found remotely tricky, though not so much to not get the meaning, were:
しかして (I don't recall seeing this before, but what it's been used for [そして] is clear enough)
聞きつけて (understand the general sense, if not the exact meaning)
便乗 (worked out the meaning in context, and probably looked it up before but forgot)
事ここに至っては (could work out the general meaning even though I hadn't looked it up before)
I had a moment of 'what is the reading of this word/do I know this?' with 泥棒, which is something I don't really struggle with normally.
Looking for more "native" way to learn vocab - kazuki - 2014-04-17
Thank you! :-) I figured the Japanese was a bit more to the point. I had trouble with the same words.. the first one is actually my mistake in copy/paste.. it's もしかして not しかして. The other ones like つけて after 聞き was same for me. I also had to look up a few just to be sure even though I had a pretty good idea. It's reassuring to hear that for those more advanced the Japanese words aren't that much trouble.
Looking for more "native" way to learn vocab - albion - 2014-04-17
Haha, it was an odd coincidence that しかして happened to be a proper word then.