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+--- Thread: Loose long term path? (/thread-1175.html)
Loose long term path? - Shingo - 2008-02-07
Hi guys,
I got my copy of RTK a couple of days a go and can't wait to start. I have been looking round the forums and get the jist of the Heisig method and understand that it is best to complete RTK before indulging in any other study methods.
I have a couple of questions to ask though and would like to kind of present an innocent and probably naive program of a path to follow in the long term. I realise that it is very easy to get ahead of one's self but I find it easier to plan things in my mind if I am aware of what the next step is so please bear with me.
Firstly I realise that the Hirigana and Katakana are not included so I assume the next step after RTK1 would be to learn these via Heisig's other book (if I decide I like the system). Secondly I am aware no pronunciation is taught in RTK1 so I am assuming again that possibly having learned the Kanji in such a method it would be wise to stick with it for his other books in the series so that at least they are of a similar format and will corrolate much better than using other sources? Are the other books even as useful? I do not know, but whilst there are negatives to locking one's self into this 'franchise' of learning I feel that maybe they would work better together than picking up different text books which have perhaps covered different things in past volumes.
I also have the Genki series in the post and would like to start working through this after RTK1 because otherwise I see an incredible amount of mental punishment if I just plow through these books consecutively. Would introdcing it after RTK1 (+ Hirigana Katakana) and learning form it whilst looking at the other books (RTK 2+3) cause any problems as Heisig suggests it would do if I were to use RTK1 and Genki at the same time?
Obviously this is completely subject to change and I may not even find that this method works out for me but assuming it does would this be a reasonable path to follow, getting a grasp of Kanji, Hirigana Katakana, and then whilst studying the Genki series go through RTK2 and 3?
I would just like to see if I have got a balanced overview of the different sections of study and won't at the end of it find out that I have missed an integral part or confused my self by combining incompatible methods form different text books.
Thanks in advance for any advice
.
Loose long term path? - AndamanIslander - 2008-02-07
Shingo,
I think people here are real divided over RTK2...there seems to be a lot of discontent with it, though it does work for some people.
The more popular path seems to be to finish RTK1 and then enter the church of AJATT: All Japanese All The Time. ( http://www.alljapaneseallthetime.com/blog/ )
Also, Fabrice, your friendly neighborhood Reviewing the Kanji webmaster, is working on a major site overhaul that will address the whole issue of readings and pronunciation. Stand by for that.
Loose long term path? - kanji_nightmare - 2008-02-07
I'm only starting out too, so I don't have much advice. But one thing you may want to consider is learning hiragana and katakana before you start with kanji (or simultaneously).
You can learn them in a short time, and it's a nice, gentle way to start with Japanese.
I think it's useful to cover kana ASAP, because you will get an idea of the precise sounds used in Japanese early on. Also, it will allow you to start sounding out bits and pieces of Japanese which you come across, which is good practice for later.
Loose long term path? - rich_f - 2008-02-07
If I were doing it all over again, I'd learn hiragana and katakana first, using Heisig. I didn't use Heisig to learn them, and instead just did it by brute force. It took a lot longer to learn it that way than I think it would have if I had used Heisig. Then I'd move on to RTK1, and if I didn't know any other Japanese, I'd just focus on that until I finished it, then go back and start learning the actual language.
Learning hiragana and katakana will give you a good idea of what you'll be getting into with RTK1, and as you come across them, you'll be able to practice recognizing them. It's a very important skill, since you'll come across them a whoooole lot.
RTK1 is the sort of thing that can take all different kinds of time, depending on how much time you're willing/able to dedicate to it. Some folks have powered through it in a couple months, others have taken longer.
Most importantly, you need to figure out which method of learning fits you best. Some methods will definitely work better than others for you. While I thought classroom learning was the best for me, I found over time that immersion works better. But that's me.
For learning Japanese afterwards (and yeah, since you don't have any background in Japanese, I'd recommend holding off until you finish RTK1), your options are pretty wide-open. A lot of people talk about alljapaneseallthetime.com (AJATT). It's basically a hyper-immersion style of learning. The method is big on emphasizing input before output-- studying a lot of good Japanese before trying to speak/write/produce your own output. I'd say a large chunk of the people here are into that particular approach. (Including me.) But I think that for now, you should just be a sponge. Go do your RTK1 and Hiragana stuff, and just hang out here and see what people are doing and what works for them.
Loose long term path? - Chadokoro_K - 2008-02-08
I, too, would suggest that you use Heisig to learn the hiragana and katakana before you start in on the kanji via RTK1. (Or you could learn them concurrently--the first several hundred kanji in RTK are very easy to pick up so you should be able to do both quite easily.)
After you finish RTK1 go ahead and use your Genki series of books or whatever vocab texts/sources that you like.
As others have said people are fairly divided on the effectiveness of RTK 2. Its best point is that it tries to bring some order and linkage to the ON pronunciation of kanji, so it might be worth your time to look through the book to learn the pronunciation markers for these groups, but my feeling is that vocabulary itself should be learned as part of a more meaningful context. That is why I say use whatever texts or materials feel comfortable (level appropriate) and are enjoyable for you.
As for continuing on with RTK3...
It has been argued (on an RTK3 thread) that it might be good to continue learning the meaning and writing of the 1,000 kanji presented in RTK 3 while one is still in the mode of story writing. And it is certainly true that by the time you get to kanji 2042 in RTK1 you will have developed the RTK study habits and rhythm to carry through with 1,000 more stories. However there is no reason to try to learn all of the pronunciations and vocab presnted in the second half of this book -- just learn these for the RTK 3 kanji that you actually come across in your readings. (Some RTK 3 kanji are quite useful while many others are very rare until you get into higher levels of Japanese ability.) For this reason several people have advocated using the "quick and dirty" method to learn the 1,000 kanji presented in RTK3. This way they will have gone through these additional kanji, will have an English keyword/meaning to hang the writing of the kanji off of (but will let SRS review take care of memorizing it for them) until they get to the point in their studies that vocab for these kanji becomes important. (And again, there are probably fifty to a few hundred kanji that are worth knowing early on. It would be great if the RevTK community could create a list of the more useful ones. This has also been discussed on these boards so do a search.)
The decision of when to do RTK3 will be more obvious for you once you get to kanji 2042 of RTK1.
Good luck with your studies and have fun!
Loose long term path? - Shibo - 2008-02-09
I think the most important part of studying is to enjoy what you're doing. If you don't enjoy it, eventually you'll stop doing it, ne?
I'll add my voice to the rest and recommend the kana book first. It's so quick and easy that you'll blow through it in no time.
I needed to immerse myself in the language itself, so for me, I'm studying my Japanese for Busy People text at a slow rate of one chapter a week. It's all in kana and has helped me greatly in retaining that information and learning at a slow rate. The progress is slow, but I can see myself improving, so it keeps me going.
The problem with self-study for me is that since I'm alone, I don't get to speak much. I'm doing Pimsleur lessons to help with that.
So yeah, 3 methods at once, all of which I love. If I'm having a bad day, or week in one method, then I'm probably having success in another area. The variety keeps me going, and most importantly, keeps it fun. If you want to get through RTK1 quickly, then use a text, do it. If you want to crack open your book early, it won't kill you. Heisig's only caution was to avoid doing it in an actual classroom setting (in which the assumption is made that the professor is trying to teach kanji via another method).
I can't say it any better than Chadokoro_K just said, so with apologies to the original author, I shall quote:
Good luck with your studies and have fun!
Loose long term path? - Shingo - 2008-02-09
Thank you very much for all your replies, you have provided me with an abundance of useful information. One point which has resonated throughout all of them is that it is best to learn the Hirigana and Katakana first, this I will definitley do, as it probably is a better introduction to Japanese and will help keep morale high during the first critical period.
I also completely acknowledge the fact that I will be in a better position to decide my own path after discovering my learning style and what helps me best after completing RTK1 and I thank you for providing me with an overview to the first steps of learning as although I may not eventually stick to this it is good to have an idea of where I can go next.
Finally, of course it is all about having fun as Shibo says. So I will try and remember not to bore myself with mundane and sequencial studies thorugh Heisig's books and instead after RTK1 mix it up a little and keep a couple of things on the boil.
Thanks again all of you for your imput
.P.S Thanks Chadokoro_K for your reviwes of RTK1 + 2, I will bear this in mind when I have finished RTK1. At the moment I feel I will need to buy RTK2 though for the pronunciation, but who knows how I will feel when it comes to it.
Loose long term path? - yukamina - 2008-02-09
I don't think you need to buy a book to learn the kana, though :/ All you need is a guide and some stuff to practice on.
Loose long term path? - Shibo - 2008-02-09
Yukamina, while I agree that a kana book is not a necessity, I can tell you that Heisig's book makes the learning so ridiculously easy and fun that I can't imagine doing it any other way. I'd learned them once before, many years eariler, through rote memorization. It was no fun for me. With RTKana, my lessons were the highlight of my day for almost two weeks and I've never had trouble remembering since. ^^