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+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: General discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: Benny v2.0 (/thread-11705.html)
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-27
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Benny v2.0 - nadiatims - 2014-03-27
"Katsumoto may be a classic example, that in 1,5 became quite fluent in Japanese."
There isn't actually any evidence of this though... Most likely he was (intentionally or not) exaggerating his own ability. The video of him speaking showed his level after 6 years or something not 1.5.
Benny v2.0 - andikaze - 2014-03-28
No offense, but I doubt Khatzumoto on all possible levels.
Benny might be a problem for some people, but Kahatzumoto sure is the bigger hoax.
Benny v2.0 - poblequadrat - 2014-03-28
andikaze Wrote:No offense, but I doubt Khatzumoto on all possible levels.I don't doubt he learnt Japanese but his webpage is IMO a huge load of bollocks. Just reading any of what he writes makes me cringe - from "grammar doesn't exist" to all the self-help talk to the way he slags off just about any way of learning a language that isn't his own.
Benny might be a problem for some people, but Kahatzumoto sure is the bigger hoax.
In the end, of course being immersed in a language is the ideal way to learn it, but the sect-like approach Khatzumoto promotes is impossible for anyone who isn't a total shut-in anyway, and besides you don't need any guru talk nor any products off some Internet guy if you're going to do it - you'd probably need some psychological assistance if you followed his advice, though.
Benny v2.0 - andikaze - 2014-03-28
Describing words you don't know doesn't make you a cheater, it makes you communicate if it helps you to get the point across. The next time you need it, you'll know the word. You progress through the levels using that method, and you'll get a lot of speaking practice that way, and that's what counts.
Khatzumoto just grabbed stuff left and right, rephrased it in his "look at me, I'm funny" way (I absolutely don't find funny at all) and started a business. The (free) stuff on his website won't make you learn anything. The tips he provides for learning can be found everywhere, especially here on these forums.
Nukemarine did a much better job with his startup-thread than Khatzumoto did with hundreds of long-winded ramblings.
And then there's this psychological thing: When you talk about doing something, your brain makes you feel like having done it already. Talk long enough about learning Japanese and you'll have burnt all your motivation to actually do so, the easy way. In the end, you won't have achieved anything.
By the way, 「病気の人が治療を受けられる所」 is ungrammatical. But it'll probably be understood and thus achieve communication. That's another thing with "just speaking": You'll eventually learn from your mistakes.
Benny v2.0 - afterglowefx - 2014-03-28
Arupan Wrote:I don't think you can describe 病院 like that. 「病気の人が治療を受けられる所」 would be OK, however. And maybe you could say something like 睡眠を満足(or 十分)に取っていない状態 for 寝不足 instead (here it's just optional though).Jesus, are you always so quibbling? In any given conversation, provided I suppose that we aren't talking to someone like you, these sorts of work-arounds are an important stepping stone in conversational ability. If you can't recall a word you've got two choices: 1) stop talking and consult a dictionary or 2) describe what you're trying to say until the other person gets it. I fail to see how the second option could be considered "cheating", as it moves the conversation along and allows you to get your meaning across (which is, coincidentally, the entire point of conversation). The first option is stilted, awkward, and ruins the interchange.
Describing words doesn't really make you fluent but something more of a cheater, in my opinion. I don't think anyone would say something like "the little thingy which shows time" instead of "watch", for instance.
Nobody is using such methods for everyday words, but once you get into more specialized territory they're essential if you actually want to have a conversation anywhere between starting Japanese and the several years it will take you to become proficient. Just yesterday I had to recall 花粉症 and couldn't seem to get it, 花のアレルギーworked just fine. Lease? How the hell do you say lease? アパートの契約 saved the day (evidently it is リース, hah).
I might even argue that such work-arounds are not just helpful but necessary. Somebody who waits until they have all the proper words at their disposal will have spent years waiting to start talking. Somebody who has been working with what they have (even if it isn't much) will have been practicing the entire time. It's something children do all the time, and it's something the best of my Japanese students have mastered as well.
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-28
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Benny v2.0 - andikaze - 2014-03-28
My explanations will probably suck, but you don't use 受ける passively like that, for example. I should now dive into transitive and intransitive, explain how the passive voice works etc, but that's stuff you can look up easily.
It makes you fluent in a sense that you keep a conversation going, and that's what it's all about. Just speaking, without long and awkward pauses for grammar or vocab. That's what native speakers do. too. They just speak and when they don't know a term, they describe it. If that never seems to have occurred to you in your own mother tongue, you might not pay enough attention.
This doesn't have anything to do with "thinking on your own" vs. "going with the crowd". Don't be passive-aggressive. There's no need to. We're discussing an issue and ways to solve it here. We're not comparing dicks.
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-29
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Benny v2.0 - andikaze - 2014-03-29
If you used the potential form, you got the particle wrong.
If you feel the need to actually correct a perfectly fine thing, at least do it properly. I have no clue why you attempted to do that in the first place.
And we're not talking about your Japanese skills here, and you'll get corrections at Lang-8 if you feel like it.
We've been talking about fluency and ways to achieve it.
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-29
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Benny v2.0 - andikaze - 2014-03-29
You're cracking me up.
Now let's get back to topic.
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-29
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Benny v2.0 - andikaze - 2014-03-29
Maybe you should re-read the grammar point before you go on and make an idiot of yourself like this?
I'll give you a hint:
Is 医療 the only thing you get at a Japanese 病院?
Now, I'm not here to teach you the language. I've been discussing ways to get better at speaking and more fluent, before you came in and hijacked the thread.
Can we return to topic now? I won't feed you any longer.
Benny v2.0 - dtcamero - 2014-03-29
Sometimes I forget the word I want in English. Instead I describe the word I wanted to use. Does that make me not fluent in English? Of course not.
Fluency (as I understand it) isn't about having perfect language skills. We often overestimate our native language skills in the course of acquiring an L2, but in reality they are far from perfect also.
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-29
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Benny v2.0 - qwertyytrewq - 2014-03-29
Who's going to be Benny 3.0?
Benny v2.0 - JimmySeal - 2014-03-30
Well this is a shining example of how to fill an entire page of a forum thread with nothing.
Aside from having な instead of の, andikaze's phrase for "hospital" was just fine and would have been perfectly understood.
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-30
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Benny v2.0 - JimmySeal - 2014-03-30
It had one mistake in it, and one word that wasn't quite right for the situation. And he was not "talking trash about people who took N1"; he was conveying an anectdote about certain people who have passed N1. I have no doubt that there are plenty of people who have passed N1 without ever learning to speak well. The test doesn't require any speaking or production ability at all.
Benny v2.0 - Arupan - 2014-03-30
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Benny v2.0 - Danchan - 2014-03-31
It's a very controversial topic, but I don't think that definition of fluency given in wikipedia leads necessarily to the fluency=mastery definition. The second possible definition mentioned earlier is also possible, and that is the one which I typically mean and use. Here's a link to a good rebuttal I read a few months back to the idea that "true fluency" means "can do absolutely everything perfectly." (http://nitpickybetch.tumblr.com/post/53320893435/are-you-fluent)
I think it is similar with literacy. We have the term "functional literacy" for example. Can you read a newspaper in Japanese and understand most of it? Yes? Then I would say you are functionally literate. But, that doesn't mean there isn't a huge difference between functional literacy and high levels of literacy. A junior high school student and a graduate student are both literate, but with a massive gap in their skill levels.
Anyhow, I don't think people claiming functionary fluency in a foreign language is possible in six months are necessarily being deceptive, unless they specifically use the sense of fluency as total mastery. If they argue that "anybody can do it" or that it is a reasonable goal, well that is pretty crazy. But that doesn't mean it can't be done.
It's worth noting that not everybody who has learned X language in six or whatever months are Benny types. Take Steve Kaufmann, who regularly debates with Benny about what is a reasonable time frame for learning a language. He claims he became capable of reading, writing and speaking mandarin within a six month period. BUT he also states that he was able to enjoy a very beneficial environment, being able to dedicate all of his time each day on the task while being supported by the Canadian government. It is not necessary to work that hard, nor is it even realistic for most people in most situations. But that doesn't mean it can't be done. Here, using efficient methods is very important, and the methods he espouses (lots of enjoyable reading and listening) are not packaged as "hacks". He repeatedly says that while there are effective and not-so effective ways of going about the task, languages cannot be hacked.
Which brings me to the Khatzumoto bashing. Putting aside his writing style or mercantilism and focusing on the question of whether he was as good as he claimed to be within eighteen months: Well, at one point he states that he was "linguistically Japanese" when he arrived in the country after his intensive immersion period, but needed a few more months after that for his output to become more natural (dropping some of the anime style speak). This is rather vague though. I would imagine that he had a passive vocabulary of around 18,000-20,000 words, could understand 95%+ of everyday conversations, could speak and make himself understood with most matters, and was, functionally fluent in the non-mastery sense. Was he as good as a university educated native? Certainly not. Was he pretty good? I would assume so. Is that an amazing achievement for 18 months of work? Yep.
It is interesting that in one of the more often read articles on AskAKorean (http://askakorean.blogspot.com.au/2010/01/koreans-english-acquisition-and-best.html), the Korean calls “fun, immersive language learning” a “myth”. If we want to get good at something, we need to learn to toughen up and work through the pain. Actually though, the approach the Korean advocates is basically AEATT. Lots of memorization, lots of listening practice, lots of TV, and lots of reading. The Korean went from intermediate English when he moved to the states as a high school student, to fluency and beyond in two years (he ended up going to UCLA I think).
Benny v2.0 - TsugiAshi - 2014-03-31
qwertyytrewq Wrote:Who's going to be Benny 3.0?I'll give it a whirl.
Just give me a few years to become better at Japanese, then I'll create a blog claiming that my skills were acquired in a mere 2 weeks. And yours can be too... for just the low, low price of $6,000.
Benny v2.0 - sholum - 2014-03-31
TsugiAshi Wrote:You might as well throw some Khatzumoto in there too and make the price jump randomly every day.qwertyytrewq Wrote:Who's going to be Benny 3.0?I'll give it a whirl.
Just give me a few years to become better at Japanese, then I'll create a blog claiming that my skills were acquired in a mere 2 weeks. And yours can be too... for just the low, low price of $6,000.
I don't have a problem with motivational blogs, but when they claim you can do something extraordinary if you just purchase their products, it makes the whole thing rather unpleasant.
Benny v2.0 - raharney - 2014-03-31
Benny wanders the world, learning languages, hanging out in the coolest of places. What kind of dull minded moron wouldn't want to be Benny v.whatever.