Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan?

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Printable Version

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Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - gc_3k - 2014-03-09

This particular dilemma, and incidentally, the social debate du jour of feminism and identity politics, can make you feel a little self-conscious.

I see more examples of this behavior in Kanto and Tohoku, and a lot less when I lived in or visit Ryukyu and Okinawa. In the latter, I put my money in the convenience store clerk's hand, people walk past me on the sidewalk, I practice Japanese with the cab driver I've never met before, everyone's guard is down.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-09

For the record, Afterglowefx isn't really in culture shock. I came straight out of living in a tent in Africa for a year, Japan is easy-mode.

But you can't really argue that the "never talk to people you don't know" attitude here isn't stronger than most other places in the world (been lucky enough to see a few), nor that it isn't dehumanizing in a lot of ways (for Japanese as well).

I've been here two years, I'm finally able to communicate in the language, I'm not especially bothered anymore. I don't go into auto-road-rage when I drive anymore, I don't care about the staring, I don't care about the petty racism, etc etc. If Japan wasn't a cool place I wouldn't be here.

But that doesn't mean it's problem free. I didn't mean to come off like I was the cynical one--I was only highlighting how socially awful Japanese can be, and how you shouldn't let that rub off on you. It doesn't make me feel bad, although it must be difficult for Japanese who've never been anywhere else and think this is the way that the world works. I might be cynical then.

I forget who mentioned it, but I will agree at least that the way this plays out on public transportation is--in once facet--nice. While I might not be striking up any conversations anytime soon, at least nobody's going to be super-disturbing either.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Tzadeck - 2014-03-09

afterglowefx Wrote:For the record, Afterglowefx isn't really in culture shock. I came straight out of living in a tent in Africa for a year, Japan is easy-mode.

You're confused about what culture shock is. Coming to a country, being excited, and then after a bit of time getting annoyed at lots of little things and feeling tired, is basically how culture shock plays out for most people. Were you excited when you came to Japan? Was your post not about how you get annoyed at lots of little things? It's called culture shock.

gc_3k Wrote:It's not simply unfriendly faces on the street. It's death stares, people walking on the same sidewalk abruptly darting into alleys or convenience stores, indignantly leaving their train seat or the department store because you're in the vicinity, the convenience store clerk pulling out and slamming the money tray on the counter when you're next in line... other silly gestures.

I agree with others that a lot of this is in your head. Thinking that people would hide in a convenience store from a foreigner seems absurd to me. Are you a giant scary looking man? Because otherwise, I think people buy stuff in convenience stores and take alleys to get places.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-09

Tzadeck Wrote:
afterglowefx Wrote:For the record, Afterglowefx isn't really in culture shock. I came straight out of living in a tent in Africa for a year, Japan is easy-mode.
You're confused about what culture shock is. Coming to a country, being excited, and then after a bit of time getting annoyed at lots of little things and feeling tired, is basically how culture shock plays out for most people. Were you excited when you came to Japan? Was your post not about how you get annoyed at lots of little things? It's called culture shock.

I suppose to me the phrase 'culture shock' places most of its meaning on the "shock" component: it's that initial disorientation, confusion, anxiety, and discomfort associated with being thrust into a new environment you're unfamiliar with. I'm not sure if we have a word for what comes after that, but for me it's just the somewhat mild griping and resignation that accompanies living anywhere. America is certainly not without her problems, nor is any other place on Earth. And were I living there, and were a foreigner to post a thread like this asking if America's drawbacks should be forming a core part of how she or he interacts with the world at large (as vileru has done), I'd be offering the same advice: "No.".

Regards coming to Japan, it was fairly coincidental. I had already taken a big road-trip all around the country in 2010 and after Africa I had nothing better to do. That first trip, that was culture shock: imagine your first time driving in Japan--hell, your first time driving on the left at all--was when you picked up your rental car in friggen' Shinjuku. Then, somehow, you took a 7,000km 5-week road-trip around the entire country from Hokkaido to Yamaguchi with literally three words of Japanese. I knew what I was getting into my second time, and as somebody who's quite experienced what culture shock is (Congolese markets where nobody's ever seen a white man before, say?), it's now what I'm experiencing now.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - kitakitsune - 2014-03-09

Tzadeck Wrote:
gc_3k Wrote:It's not simply unfriendly faces on the street. It's death stares, people walking on the same sidewalk abruptly darting into alleys or convenience stores, indignantly leaving their train seat or the department store because you're in the vicinity, the convenience store clerk pulling out and slamming the money tray on the counter when you're next in line... other silly gestures.
I agree with others that a lot of this is in your head. Thinking that people would hide in a convenience store from a foreigner seems absurd to me. Are you a giant scary looking man? Because otherwise, I think people buy stuff in convenience stores and take alleys to get places.

I've never really experienced this in Tokyo but I work with a guy who used to be on the Jet program in Kochi or someplace. He is always talking about how much he loves Tokyo because he doesn't get any "death stares" here.

Also, I took a trip to one of the inaka areas of Kyoto to visit in-laws a few months back. I absolutely noticed that I received 20x as much attention there. Especially from kids. I don't mind that stuff though, it didn't seem like those kids have ever interacted with a foreigner who wasn't their English teacher. But I could see how the stares and whispers could get really annoying after a few months.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - gc_3k - 2014-03-09

Tzadeck Wrote:
gc_3k Wrote:It's not simply unfriendly faces on the street. It's death stares, people walking on the same sidewalk abruptly darting into alleys or convenience stores, indignantly leaving their train seat or the department store because you're in the vicinity, the convenience store clerk pulling out and slamming the money tray on the counter when you're next in line... other silly gestures.
I agree with others that a lot of this is in your head. Thinking that people would hide in a convenience store from a foreigner seems absurd to me. Are you a giant scary looking man? Because otherwise, I think people buy stuff in convenience stores and take alleys to get places.

I'm skinny and dress "Uniqlo" (not necessarily from that clothing store). There's nothing about my appearance that would reasonably cause alarm. I don't exactly look like Alan Moore, if you know who that is.

I should mention that I live in Tohoku, although I've lived in and traveled to a lot of places, with the notable exceptions of Kansai and Hokkaido.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-09

It doesn't really bother me too much (perhaps I've just gotten accustomed to it) but you guys in Tokyo really ought to cut country-kids more slack. We do get petty racism on a daily basis, and we're not making it up. People do stare, all the time, sometimes with hostility. I've had people yell shit at me in my car. I've had people cross the street in front of me and re-cross behind me. I've had people immediately get up off the train, or purposefully go stand somewhere else. Not unusual at all to hear whispers of 「外人！外人がいる！」 from grown adults as I walk past in the supermarket.

I've gotten full on racism more than once. I've been halfway through the application process for an apartment before being told they couldn't rent to us because I was foreign. My girlfriend was left stunned and crying after that one. I've been denied entry to a restaurant in Hokkaido: no, no, sorry, full ... customers in front of me went in, customers after me went in, the place was huge. Was in a minor car accident in Kyuushuu (10km/hour), police spent two hours yelling at me, a friend of mine, and my girlfriend--he insisted that foreigners should not drive in Japan, ever, and that non-Japanese are incapable of understanding Japanese rules (the funny part is that the accident was caused by somebody parking in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone).

The minor stuff is daily. That doesn't mean that it isn't answered at the other end of the spectrum with amazing acts of kindness. There's also a lot of positive racism too: for many people I'm not cool because of my awesome sense of humor but because I just so happen to be American. But to claim that anybody experiencing racism is just making it up is insane.

Annnd somehow this has become a Japan griping thread.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - vileru - 2014-03-09

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone! I have a few points I'd like to mention:

1. I actually love how Japanese people don't randomly accost you. I think it's one of the reasons I'm having trouble acting differently although I'm back in the US. These very Japanese thoughts keep intruding into my head. For instance, I'm much more likely now to wish that the person exchanging pleasantries with the staff would just focus on finishing their business so other customers can be helped. In fact, I find myself whispering 迷惑な人 in the back of my mind. Likewise, I get irritated when a server constantly pesters me with "How's everything?" and just wish I could enjoy my meal without interruption. Prior to having lived in Japan, I was rarely bothered by these kinds of behavior, but now I'm hyper-aware of them. Since I think this way now, I tend to monitor my behavior so as to not be a nuisance, like how I would in Japan. As noted earlier, I should change this since I'm in the US now and the norms here are different.

2. By accepting Japanese culture, I've been able to have relationships I wouldn't have had otherwise. While I was an English teacher, several students confessed that they took my classes because I "understand Japanese people" (日本人の心が分かる・以心伝心・等). I've been to many nomikai where I was the only foreigner, even though the Japanese present had plenty of foreign friends. Therefore, I don't think playing up one's foreign appeal is the only way to make friends. Although, perhaps my success is related to my next point.

3. Although I'm American, I'm genetically half-Asian (Filipino and Chinese) and half-white (German and Italian), but I look Asian and am fashion-conscious. While in Japan, most Japanese people first speak to me in Japanese unless they already know I'm American. Japanese people often have double-takes and ask me whether I'm Japanese. One of my former colleagues even once asked me, "Why do you look like... you know ... one of us...?" At any rate, my point is that I blend in and have very rarely felt like the target of micro-aggressions from strangers (although I certainly have experienced what I'd consider discrimination).

4. The type of cynicism I have in mind isn't the result of a reaction to Japanese culture, but of adapting to it. I'm talking about the cynicism that comes from concepts like 迷惑・思いやり・わがまま・TPO・etc.

5. Speaking of 思いやり, I think it's related to why Japanese people first use English when communicating with foreigners. They don't think they're profiling or discriminating. In their heads, they're being thoughtful and considerate. Ironically, they're treating you in a very Japanese way. This is one of the most important differences I've noticed between Japan and the US. In Japan, it is considerate to make assumptions about someone and treat them accordingly. Someone who doesn't is a 思いやりのない人 or 鈍感 or 空気読めない. In the US, it's usually quite rude to make assumptions about someone and treat them otherwise, unless specifically told to do so.

Nonetheless, I don't get why anyone would be bothered when someone asks you a question like whether you eat hamburgers often after you mention you're American. After all, if I mentioned to another American that I live in the Boston area, I'd probably be asked something similar, like whether I go to a lot of Red Sox games or some other stereotypical Boston thing.

Edit: drdunlap, how can you be a prominent figure in the Japanese craft beer industry and drink *cautiously looks around and then whispers with hand in front of mouth* onecup? That's like the natty ice of sake. For shame! What next? Did you wash it down with a 発泡酒? Or perhaps you were a bit homesick and went for an adjunct lager?

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - NightSky - 2014-03-10

I lived in Mie-ken in a city with no foreigners, so I understand it is quite different to Tokyo or the other major cities.

afterglowefx - in your case it probably isn't culture shock as such, it sounds to me like you just don't fit in particularly well. Though I think your understanding of what culture shock actually is is still incorrect -- it is not the initial difficulties of adjusting having just moved to a country. It takes affect usually a good 6 months later once you have a routine and have got used to most things, but you find a craving for home because all the little differences annoy you.

Anyway its pretty rude and bordering on offensive describing the Japanese way as "de-humanising". Its not, its just not what you are used to where Americans are on the other side of the spectrum. I prefer it the Japan way mostly, if I'm on a train or at a restaurant by myself or whatever, I usually *don't* want random people coming up to me making small talk. I'm usually doing something else or just taking a mental break, and I'm not interested in chatting about nothing to other people I don't know (and who I have no interest in). I've spent time in the US and, if anything, just found it annoying.

Neither country is "wrong", just both are different. You have a mindset that your way is the right way and theirs is the incorrect "de-humanising" way. and its not. You have it wrong, not everyone else.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - drdunlap - 2014-03-10

vileru Wrote:Edit: drdunlap, how can you be a prominent figure in the Japanese craft beer industry and drink *cautiously looks around and then whispers with hand in front of mouth* onecup? That's like the natty ice of sake. For shame! What next? Did you wash it down with a 発泡酒? Or perhaps you were a bit homesick and went for an adjunct lager?

Hahaha. Because I'm a beer guy! Also cheaper sake works just fine for atsukan. ヽ(´ー｀)ノ I'm not super knowledgeable on sake so I don't want to ruin a perfectly good thing by making it hot. 8) I'd never drink that stuff cold though.. for sure. Bad times.
When I drink cold sake (not very often..) I go for the good stuff. :]
I'll save my money for tasty beers!

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-10

I fit in fine (or as well as a foreigner can, anyway). I'm not bitter or upset. It's an aspect of the system here I don't see as optimal for me personally, I'm not in the business of judging this or that to be wrong for everyone. How could I make that claim? By no means does my opinion hold universal moral worth.

As to somehow being racist in describing Japan as de-humanizing, I'm not being controversial. Cities are widely regarded as so, and Japan is more urbanized than most places on Earth (Tokyo being the largest metropolitan area on Earth). Combine that with some other uniquely Japanese cultural habits and that tendency is magnified: the work ethic, concepts of social harmony and personal sacrifice, the organization of social spaces, the attitude that approaching any stranger whatsoever is troublesome for all involved.

You can tuck all this behind a cultural relativistic veneer and claim no harm done, but it's pretty plain for all to see. Hell I'm mostly voicing the complaints of Japanese friends, although I do happen to agree with them. Again, I'm not in the position to claim that this is wrong or needs to be changed. I personally don't see much worth in it, but that's a view for me and may not (or clearly doesn't) suit everyone.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - vix86 - 2014-03-10

afterglowefx Wrote:I've gotten full on racism more than once. I've been halfway through the application process for an apartment before being told they couldn't rent to us because I was foreign. My girlfriend was left stunned and crying after that one. I've been denied entry to a restaurant in Hokkaido: no, no, sorry, full ... customers in front of me went in, customers after me went in, the place was huge. Was in a minor car accident in Kyuushuu (10km/hour), police spent two hours yelling at me, a friend of mine, and my girlfriend--he insisted that foreigners should not drive in Japan, ever, and that non-Japanese are incapable of understanding Japanese rules (the funny part is that the accident was caused by somebody parking in the middle of the road talking on their cell phone).

This is the stuff that pisses me off.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Eminem2 - 2014-03-10

Sorry for butting in here without ever having lived in Japan, but this discussion resonated with me on a more fundamental level. In my personal experience, people in the West (specifically Western Europe) too often *require* if not outright *demand* personal openness (for lack of a better term) and easy-goingness from co-workers or service personnel. I have actually experienced being ordered to converse about my private life during my lunch break (yup, my *own* time...) by direct superiors. And during one performance interview (during a different job) I was informed that my vacation stories had been deemed insufficiently entertaining by at least one colleague... And frankly, that is going off the opposite deep end compared to Japan, I feel.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - dizmox - 2014-03-10

When people saw me here in Japan, they'd always assume I'm some stereotypical Western guy. The reality is that I was a semi-hikikomori for most of the time I was in my birth country, I still don't know a single Westerner offline other than my immediate family back home and only a few people, I hardly know about Western music, I'm not interested in professional sports, despite my Japanese still being clumsy I'm better at expressing my emotions and personality in it than my native English and I feel like a foreigner every time I go back to my hometown now.

I eventually just decided to make my appearance the opposite of a typical western male (男の娘万歳) to reflect my real personality a bit better...　I just got tired of being treated like an anthropology exhibit.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - andikaze - 2014-03-12

Hmm. I've been the same here I've been in Germany. I'm just me. And yes, we do get quite an interesting mix of both negative and positive racism here, and that ドイツ人、いいなあ mixes just fine with クソ外人for my taste.

I AM a "huge, scary guy" (I'm not fat, but I'm much broader and taller than most people here, and I got a shaved head) actually, but that actually leads to people constantly telling me I'd look like Bruce Willis (don't think so) and girls shouting かっこいい when I wear a long coat in winter.

I don't care about the police officer asking わかりますか after every third word or the old lady looking scared when I look at HER, and when people compliment me on my usage of chopsticks, I compliment them on their Japanese and ask them where they learned it.

Part of why this country feels not that strange for me might be my nationality. Germans are more the reserved type in public, too. Actually, the staff in shops greeting me makes me think しつこいなあ more than it might Japanese people. I'm totally cool with being left alone.

When I DO want to talk with people, I do. And people do talk back. I made friends here, I get along with people, and it's all well. This here is not 田舎, but it's still a huge difference from Tokyo, so probably the right mix.

I think about moving to Yokohama in the future, which might make things even easier for me.

I'm me, the guy from Germany who now happens to live in Japan, and if people refer to me as "the foreigner", that's their problem, not mine. I actually have a name - but it's not the business of some 関係ない人. I'm totally happy with being close only with friends.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Ephel - 2014-03-12

vileru Wrote:5. Speaking of 思いやり, I think it's related to why Japanese people first use English when communicating with foreigners. They don't think they're profiling or discriminating. In their heads, they're being thoughtful and considerate. Ironically, they're treating you in a very Japanese way. This is one of the most important differences I've noticed between Japan and the US. In Japan, it is considerate to make assumptions about someone and treat them accordingly. Someone who doesn't is a 思いやりのない人 or 鈍感 or 空気読めない. In the US, it's usually quite rude to make assumptions about someone and treat them otherwise, unless specifically told to do so.

I know this is not the point of what you're saying, but, on the specific topic of language, please notice that English is more and more THE international language, and in most countries people will try to talk you in English first, if you look like a foreigner.

The problem of "in which language should I address this foreign-looking guy" is something people in an English speaking country don't have: their mother tongue IS the "International Language", so it's the one you should start with... so you may have a different take at this just because in your own country you can start speaking in English to anyone just assuming they know it (which may be deemed arrogant by some).

The reason people tend to notice this behaviour more in Japan than in other countries is that in the west we're quite a mix of races, with a multi-ethnical society that makes it impossible to distinguish a foreigner just by the color of his skin or the form of his nose. If everyone had his citizenship tattoed on the forhead, people will probably talk in English with everyone with a different tatoo than their own.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - andikaze - 2014-03-12

People don't use English with you because they try to be good to you. They do because they know a little and find it fun to try it out.
Most are afraid of embarrassing themselves though.

It also depends heavily on how good your Japanese is.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Stansfield123 - 2014-03-12

I absolutely start out in English, if I encounter Black people or Asians (lots of Africans, Chinese and Arabs around here). Second choice is generally French.

Those kinds of encounters don't happen much these days, but they did all the time when I worked in the service industry, during college. And yes, I did it partially to show off. But mostly because I expected that it gave them the best chance to understand what I was saying, and that was my job. Not to assume that they were my countrymen, even though there was at most a 1% chance of that, but to assist them as fast as possible.

And whether I spoke the language or not, I would be happy if someone spoke English to me in an Asian country. I'd look at it as a kind gesture, of someone trying to be helpful, not as "racism".

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - yudantaiteki - 2014-03-12

I lived for two years in Tokyo and two years in Tochigi, so I agree with those who are saying there's a big difference in how you're treated. It's not like I had hordes of kids throwing rocks at me in Tochigi, but the "omg a gaijin!" attitude was much more prevalent there. (Although apartment discrimination happens everywhere.)

Sometimes you have to take what you see on the Internet with a grain of salt. Online forums may be the only place someone can vent steam about the things that annoy them in Japan, and that doesn't mean they hate Japan.

RE: Culture shock, virtually everyone who goes to Japan will experience it to some degree. It's not a sign of weakness and has nothing to do with your interest in Japan or dedication.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Loviatar - 2014-03-12

This is a very interesting topic for me. I haven't been to Japan yet, but I am planning an exchange year, maybe even longer stay if life gives the opportunity for that. I guess I want to test myself if I can do it Big Grin

I'm sure the "unicorn-effect" would annoy me greatly, but the "reserved-Japanese" would probably not annoy me nearly as much. I am a Finn, and we are silent in two languages, or so they say at least Wink

I enjoy my own privacy and in general have no need to chat with unknown people in public. I'm perfectly happy being on my own, without saying anything to anyone. Cultural similarities and differences at play I suppose...

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - EratiK - 2014-03-12

I didn't know the definition for culture shock was so wide, that's good to know. The wikipedia page also tells the outcome of culture shock after a year: 60% of rejectors, that's more than I would have expected, even if it's true expatriates come in a variatey of circumstances.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Culture_shock#Outcomes

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - ryuudou - 2014-03-12

Not cynical. Even more positive.

The people who have trouble meeting people here need to look inside for the problems as to why.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-12

yudantaiteki Wrote:I lived for two years in Tokyo and two years in Tochigi, so I agree with those who are saying there's a big difference in how you're treated. It's not like I had hordes of kids throwing rocks at me in Tochigi, but the "omg a gaijin!" attitude was much more prevalent there. (Although apartment discrimination happens everywhere.)

Sometimes you have to take what you see on the Internet with a grain of salt. Online forums may be the only place someone can vent steam about the things that annoy them in Japan, and that doesn't mean they hate Japan.

RE: Culture shock, virtually everyone who goes to Japan will experience it to some degree. It's not a sign of weakness and has nothing to do with your interest in Japan or dedication.

This is an important thing to point out, and you're absolutely right: for all the bitching, we're free to go at anytime--and here we are. For anybody reading this who doesn't live in Japan, you've got to remember that most of the time this stuff is petty, and that you'd find the same level of griping in any "What do you hate about your hometown" sort of conversation. In my tiny, backwoods hometown back in the US, the level of racism is certainly right on par with Japan (or worse), the people are just as ignorant about the outside world, and the food is about a million times worse. And don't even get me started on the women...

If I were black growing up there, I'd be speaking much more strongly about the town I grew up in than I am now about Japan. And I think that's the core of the issue: most of us are white, male, and middle-class--we're seeing discrimination for the first time in our lives (and when I'm not annoyed I'm grateful for that experience).

I still think some of the bigger issues in Japan are certainly worthy of criticism (Japan has a long, long way to go on gender equality; LGBT rights are non-existent; the legal system is bucked; etc, etc), but most of what you encounter is the same as you'd encounter in any bar anywhere in the world where people are in the mood to or invited to bitch.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2014-03-12

Stansfield123 Wrote:And whether I spoke the language or not, I would be happy if someone spoke English to me in an Asian country. I'd look at it as a kind gesture, of someone trying to be helpful, not as "racism".

Not to nitpick, Stansfield123, but this kind of jumped out at me.

A lot of the kids in my classes (here in Japan) are black and white and brown. But they're all Japanese. I don't believe they think that someone speaking English to them is "kind." Sometimes they're even called "gaijin" by the other kids, despite never having lived anywhere else.

While you may see this as kindness, it's hard to see it as other than racism, for me.

Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - kitakitsune - 2014-03-12

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:A lot of the kids in my classes (here in Japan) are black and white and brown. But they're all Japanese. I don't believe they think that someone speaking English to them is "kind." Sometimes they're even called "gaijin" by the other kids, despite never having lived anywhere else.

While you may see this as kindness, it's hard to see it as other than racism, for me.

I disagree. It is absolutely a feature of Japanese kindness and service mentality when they speak English to people who do not appear to be Japanese. The odds of a Japanese person running into a caucasian or black person born and raised in Japan are astronomically small. Meanwhile, it's far more common for foreign visitors or even foreign residents to speak better English than Japanese.

But in either situation, it becomes obvious when someone can speak Japanese.