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+--- Thread: Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? (/thread-11675.html)
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - vileru - 2014-03-08
Even though I'm back in the U.S., I've noticed that I've become significantly more cynical after having lived in Japan. Before I'd have no problem starting a conversation with someone, but now I often think that I'm just going to bother the other person or, even worse, I'll make a bad impression that come back to haunt me. I tend to mistrust people more. I question people's motives more. I'm more closed to strangers, and I mind my own business more.
So, I'm wondering if I'm just an isolated case or whether anyone else has experienced similar personality changes. I'm also wondering what people think about the kind of cynicism I'm describing. On one hand, I think that I'm lowering my risks and protecting myself from opportunists—it's better to keep a safe distance, right? On the other, I think I'm overly cautious and preventing genuine social interaction (especially since I'm now in the U.S.). At any rate, any thoughts are appreciated.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-08
The hardest part about living in Japan is that talking to strangers in ninety-nine percent of cases is out of the question. Why would you export that home with you? I know a lot of people here who spent a year in the U.S. and this closed-off, head-down attitude is also something that begins to bother them. Although I find myself experiencing a little reverse culture shock when visiting the U.S. with how open people are, it's certainly something I value. And it's something I try to espouse here. It isn't that Japanese don't want to talk to each other and especially to interesting people like the first white dude they've ever seen in their favorite ramen joint, it's just that there's no way to really go about it in Japan. With one foot in and one foot out, I'm in a special position to sidestep a lot of those boundaries and it's one of the major reasons I am studying the language. If Japanese can't start a conversation I'll start it for them. People are, by and large, friendly and outgoing--it's only the feelings like you described that get in the way. So, again, why bring all that baggage back with you--especially to a country where it has no place?
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - vileru - 2014-03-08
Everything you said makes a lot of sense. I suppose I'm just looking for validation of what I already suspected (that it's a good idea to be open and trusting of others until proven otherwise).
However, although I agree being open and trusting will work to my advantage in the U.S., does such behavior work similarly in Japan? I remember all the open and outgoing foreigners I knew were labeled as かるい. Japanese people seem to think of them as fun, but not people who can be taken seriously. I think I became less open to avoid being stigmatized like them after having been called かるい myself. Do you think one can open up to others without being forced to wear the かるい badge?
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-08
The thing about Japan is you're never not going to have a badge. I have my own apartment, I have my own car, I go shopping, I work everyday and, hell, I teach a lot of these people's kids. I live a perfectly normal Japanese life. But I'll never be Japanese, can never be Japanese, and that's something a lot of people lose sight of. You're forever going to be outside the system here, and trying to fit in is useless. That isn't to say that being familiar with social convention isn't absolutely necessary, but it's also the case that you're going to have find your own way of interacting with it.
Now, you could try the Japanese approach of being reserved, never saying what you mean, reading the air, and all that bullshit Japanese are so fond of, but I'm not sure that's going to net you friends any quicker than being the outgoing foreigner. The meat of the issue is that people want you to be foreign. Because non-Japanese can never be Japanese, when you act like a perfectly normal Japanese it's almost disturbing in a way. Everybody here has a specific role to play and when you don't play yours it confuses people.
Of course as you get to know people you get a lot more leniency in breaking down all these barriers and forming relationships on your own terms. But starting out I think it's probably a bad idea to pretend to be Japanese, because you aren't. And Japan will never stop reminding you of that fact.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Ash_S - 2014-03-08
It's one of the things I most enjoy about life in Japan, how most people mind their own business and don't cause unnecessary bother to other people. If more from the US were like that I'd be happy.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-08
Ash_S Wrote:It's one of the things I most enjoy about life in Japan, how most people mind their own business and don't cause unnecessary bother to other people. If more from the US were like that I'd be happy.Do you live here? Do you enjoy when people let the door close in your face without a look back? It's true that about the only way Japanese express contempt or annoyance is through silence, but on the other side of that you can go days or weeks without a shred of human warmth or kindness. It can quite easily become oppressive.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Ash_S - 2014-03-08
afterglowefx Wrote:Yes, I live in Tokyo. And yes, thank you for mentioning one of the things I really like. I come from the UK where sometimes you might stand holding a door open for someone at the other end of the corridor for fear of being thought rude. That only wastes your time and bothers the other person who must now hasten to the door rather than going at their own pace. Generally people are capable of opening a door themselves.Ash_S Wrote:It's one of the things I most enjoy about life in Japan, how most people mind their own business and don't cause unnecessary bother to other people. If more from the US were like that I'd be happy.Do you live here? Do you enjoy when people let the door close in your face without a look back? It's true that about the only way Japanese express contempt or annoyance is through silence, but on the other side of that you can go days or weeks without a shred of human warmth or kindness. It can quite easily become oppressive.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - patriconia - 2014-03-08
Ash_S Wrote:That only wastes your time and bothers the other person who must now hasten to the door rather than going at their own pace. Generally people are capable of opening a door themselves.^^This. I'm from the US, and would always feel obligated to hasten my pace to not leave them standing there. Just let me go at my own pace and open the door for myself.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-08
To each their own I guess. I'm a sociable and outgoing person, and certain things to me are common courtesy. Yeah, don't hold the door when I'm 20 meters away. But right behind you? Come on. Then there's the service people, completely scripted, and the patrons who by and large don't even so much as grunt a thank you. Hell half don't even look at the person working for them, let alone open their mouth. Japanese don't even look at each other, it's insane. Standing around in a long line, most cultures in the world will have it as perfectly normal to strike up a conversation. Try that in Japan and you'll be looked at like you're crazy.
I guess if you're socially withdrawn and felt kindness and (Western) courtesy to be an imposition at home this sort of dehumanizing system might appeal to you. For me and a lot of the Japanese I've known who've seen other parts of the world, it's more like a cancer. And I live in "the country" (if you consider a couple million people within 50 square kilometers to be rural), where people are generally more open with each other.
All this said, I do really happen to like how this plays out in restaurants. All that fake courtesy chummy bullshit in the U.S. really gets old. Just let me eat my food. But then I see the next table over treating the waitstaff like shit and am reminded all over again of how awful it can be.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2014-03-08
afterglowefx Wrote:it's probably a bad idea to pretend to be Japanese, because you aren't. And Japan will never stop reminding you of that fact.I agree with everything you said, and I certainly feel that. And yet, the longer I've been here, the more I don't accept this idea about Who's Really Japanese. I think it's a lie that people here weave, and a lot of "foreigners" buy into--this notion that there are exactly two kinds of people in the world, "Japanese" and everybody else.
"Japanese" is citizenship, or even residency, but certainly not race.
You get people playing these semantic games. Oh, I'm Japanese, but I was born in the U.S. Or, I was born in Japan, but spent fifteen years in England. Well, what does that make you? Half Japanese? The whole thing is just a lot of BS, plus a heaping helping of racism. You can be whatever you want to be. If people don't accept it, that's their problem. The world's changing fast; leave those people in the dust.
Nobody's giving immigrants a Welcome-to-Our-Country party. But it's not the Meiji Era anymore; people move all over the world, all the time. Why, just the other day I met a French guy, and he was black! Amazing, I know. I also met a Canadian with red hair. The world is bursting with wonders.
So if people want to live here the rest of their lives here as perpetual outsiders, go ahead and live in the Foreigner Village. But if you want to be Japanese, that's your choice too. Don't let anybody make your race an issue.
And OP, yeah I'm way more cynical after having been here, just to answer your question. But you know, we Japanese are like that.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - gc_3k - 2014-03-08
Depending on where you live and possibly what you look like, people don't mind their business. It's one thing to be treated like an outsider, it's another thing for strangers to act like you need to be apprehended by police or immigration.
And yet, as mean-spirited as strangers appear to be, the luggage that I lost on a train a few months ago, would have stayed lost in a country like the US or UK. Instead, someone left my suitcase to the care of the service booth at the following station (on an express line), and my crisis was resolved in less than an hour.
In Japan, traversing in public among strangers on the way home, or to work, or among friends, feels a bit like a vacuum. I just tune them out, put my headphones on, listen to something entertaining. Take a nap or study something on my phone when I'm idling on a train or elsewhere. I don't feel more cynical, but I think I have a lot of social re-adjustment to do when I return to the US.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - kitakitsune - 2014-03-08
Sounds like some people in this thread may be going through culture shock - and reverse culture shock.
It's perfectly normal to go through these ups and downs when exposed to a different culture and even have them continue when you go back to your home country.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - afterglowefx - 2014-03-08
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:So if people want to live here the rest of their lives here as perpetual outsiders, go ahead and live in the Foreigner Village. But if you want to be Japanese, that's your choice too. Don't let anybody make your race an issue.We're coming at this from two different directions. I'm talking about how people are (probably) going to look at you, you're talking about how you choose to identify yourself. How and with what effect those two positions interact with each other is where it gets interesting. If you want to go ahead and reorient as Japanese, more power to you, have fun working that out. It's a free world, man. But to an even greater degree, have fun getting Japanese on board for it. Although nationality and ethnicity have long been two big ole' separate things in the West, a lot of world--and especially Japan--doesn't see a shred of difference between them.
Like you said, that sort of thinking is outmoded and increasingly out of style as more and more young people travel outside the country. But it's still held by the vast majority of the population, and you're never going to stop getting funny looks claiming to be Japanese. But if it feels right for you, have at it, fight the good fight. Me? I still drop the occasional "thank you" in the check-out line just for shits and giggles. A big reason I came to Japan is to get away from overarching cultural norms and expectations. Here, with one foot in the door and the other out, I can do whatever the hell I want.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Tzadeck - 2014-03-09
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:"Japanese" is citizenship, or even residency, but certainly not race.I'd say that 'Japanese' is a citizenship, a nationality, a race (it's as legitimate at a race as any other--it's a folk concept of lineage), and a cultural background. You can be 'Japanese' or 'somewhat Japanese' in any one of those areas without necessarily being 'Japanese' in the others, but most Japanese people don't really understand that. Most people in Japan either have all four or pretend to have all four--Japanese people are used to that and are not very accepting of the idea that it can be a mix.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - kittki - 2014-03-09
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Beautiful words. すっきりした。afterglowefx Wrote:it's probably a bad idea to pretend to be Japanese, because you aren't. And Japan will never stop reminding you of that fact.I agree with everything you said, and I certainly feel that. And yet, the longer I've been here, the more I don't accept this idea about Who's Really Japanese. I think it's a lie that people here weave, and a lot of "foreigners" buy into--this notion that there are exactly two kinds of people in the world, "Japanese" and everybody else.
"Japanese" is citizenship, or even residency, but certainly not race.
You get people playing these semantic games. Oh, I'm Japanese, but I was born in the U.S. Or, I was born in Japan, but spent fifteen years in England. Well, what does that make you? Half Japanese? The whole thing is just a lot of BS, plus a heaping helping of racism. You can be whatever you want to be. If people don't accept it, that's their problem. The world's changing fast; leave those people in the dust.
Nobody's giving immigrants a Welcome-to-Our-Country party. But it's not the Meiji Era anymore; people move all over the world, all the time. Why, just the other day I met a French guy, and he was black! Amazing, I know. I also met a Canadian with red hair. The world is bursting with wonders.
So if people want to live here the rest of their lives here as perpetual outsiders, go ahead and live in the Foreigner Village. But if you want to be Japanese, that's your choice too. Don't let anybody make your race an issue.
And OP, yeah I'm way more cynical after having been here, just to answer your question. But you know, we Japanese are like that.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Ephel - 2014-03-09
afterglowefx Wrote:I guess if you're socially withdrawn and felt kindness and (Western) courtesy to be an imposition at home this sort of dehumanizing system might appeal to you.I think this was completely uncalled for... So, now everyone who likes not being bothered by people while you're on the bus it's socially withdrawn who likes a "dehumanizing system"? I'm not against random conversation with strangers, but I felt a lot better on Japanese busses and trains than western ones: if I found a seat, I could read a book and relax instead of having people screaming all around just to be heard by the friend who couldn't manage to sit close to them.
Japanese courtesy rules are completely different from our own, but that doesn't mean they're wrong, or that people is uncaring. Any foreigner who went in Japan can tell the tale of "that time I asked where the station was and this dude accompained me for three blocks and then helped me buying the ticket".
How often does that happen in western countries?
I had people following me to give me my camera I forgot on a seat, or the passport that slipped from my pocket (!). In the countriside a granny at the bus stop asked my Japanese friend (who she didn't know) about me and gave chocolates to both of us.
Japanese people don't hold the door for you? Fine! They don't start random conversation? Even if it was absolutely true, the crowd around you is not composed of a million ghost you cannot speak to: just look lost and someone will stop to ask you if they can help.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - NightSky - 2014-03-09
Good post Ephel, and you are bang on.
I started writing a huge long post about this but now kind of want to cut it short. Why is it so important for people to be "Japanese" anyway? I spent my first 20 years living in the UK, and I definitely don't look Japanese, so why would I expect to be able to move to Japan and be treated as one?
I do, however, expect to be treated like a normal intelligent person. I think this is what upsets people, because as a white person in Japan people's expectation for you is you don't speak Japanese and you don't know what is going on. But honestly, once I got to a much higher level of Japanese where the locals could essentially speak to me normally, and had gotten familiar with the way they interact with each other (at shops or whatever) I've never had any problem at all. I get treated more or less the exact same way as everyone else does.
Anyway, different countries everywhere have their own different cultural slants but really people are people everywhere and people way exaggerate the differences. I'm lucky that in just the last 6-7 years or so I've been able to spend considerable time living in all of Japan, Hong Kong, mainland China, South Africa, Spain and the UK -- and I've found it equally easy to make friendships and build relationships with people from all of them countries. Just being a decent honest friendly person with a good sense of humour works everywhere.
afterglowefx seems to be feeling quite a bit of culture shock as rightly pointed out before. But that's okay, Japan isn't for everyone.
Slightly separate point but it always makes me laugh that whenever I meet another foreigner in an asian country (say JP, HK, CN), Americans (in particular) but also Australians are usually looking forward to moving back to their home country before too long, whereas anyone from the UK nearly always tends to say "Go back? No mate I'm staying out here forever"
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2014-03-09
Tzadeck Wrote:Good point. I'd agree that most Japanese people believe those four things constitute being "Japanese."JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:"Japanese" is citizenship, or even residency, but certainly not race.I'd say that 'Japanese' is a citizenship, a nationality, a race (it's as legitimate at a race as any other--it's a folk concept of lineage), and a cultural background. You can be 'Japanese' or 'somewhat Japanese' in any one of those areas without necessarily being 'Japanese' in the others, but most Japanese people don't really understand that. Most people in Japan either have all four or pretend to have all four--Japanese people are used to that and are not very accepting of the idea that it can be a mix.
Of course, the race thing is pretty clearly not true, since there's a lot of mixed Asian blood in this country. And what about the thousands of people who are born here who don't even look Asian? What do we do with them? They're not "half," they're not anything. Do we really need to play that game they play in the U.S., where everybody's African-American, Italian-American, Mexican-American? Maybe we'll have to.
Shared cultural background sounds good, except for the fact that the popular sport seems to be throwing anyone who's "different" under the bus--and everyone's different. Okinawan? Well, you're not "real" Japanese. Ainu? Oooo, that's like an Eskimo, right? Studied abroad and then returned to Japan? Attended an international school? You're no longer "pure" Japanese, like "us."
People go nuts making cultural distinctions. Kansai versus Kanto, miso ramen versus tonkotsu, monjayaki or okonomiyaki, rice or bread? Even different parts of Tokyo discriminate against each other.
But in the end, who cares what other people think? When most of America treated blacks and women as second-class citizens, did that make it okay? Do you just throw up your hands and say, "well, that's the way it is"?
So as far as I'm concerned, people can think whatever they want. I'm here. I'm white. Get used to it.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - umetani666 - 2014-03-09
so people should get used to you not being used to the fact that you're not japanese?
i would say - just get used to it.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - drdunlap - 2014-03-09
I don't know about being "Japanese." I mean, we foreigners.. we're not..
If you just want to be a person- one of the crowd and not a foreign alien.. well that's absolutely possible. My friends and acquaintances view me as just another guy.
In fact, at an event a while back, someone commented that there were no foreigners around (foreigners usually show up at craft beer events in Osaka. At least a few (other than me)).
So of course I said, "Uh.. me?
"Their reply, "... ... ..... You? ... You don't count."
Laughs all around.
But it's perfectly possible.. at least within your group of acquaintances and friends.
I think the biggest deciding factor is, unfortunately, language ability. On a level that doesn't make sense in the rest of the world. If your accent, intonation and word-choice match that of everyone else's then you will, after a short WTF IS THIS NON-JAPANESE PERSON DOING IN OUR LANGUAGE!? period, be accepted as a perfectly normal human. (The local convenience store おばはん talks with me like I'm just another neighborhood dude). I think this is unreasonable and annoying- but it may contribute to the weird and obsessive drive for Japanese learners (as opposed to learners of most other languages) to become perfect. In the US, for example, having a foreign accent in English is absolutely no problem. Most people aren't going to be like OMG YOU DON'T REALLY KNOW ENGLISH. They'll just assume you came from somewhere else. And this is perfectly fine. I like that.
However, I was (and still am) a victim of the "become perfect" drive and this fact has allowed me to become unreasonably native in my second language. On the phone, I am indistinguishable from a Japanese native. I think this is awesome.. but also ridiculous. Why should this be a prerequisite to be accepted as a normal human?
I don't think I've become more cynical.. but I do think Japan has a lot of room for change. A lot of it is "just the Japanese way," but a lot of it is also unreasonable and/or inefficient (let's not get started on education and employment).
[PS-- As I write this I am eating 団子 covered with つぶあん and drinking a OneCup 熱燗 that I heated in the microwave. I'm so Japaneseおっさん it hurts.]
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - dizmox - 2014-03-09
I find the best thing is to just make friends online and then surprise them saying you're not actually Japanese later. Then they treat you like a normal person forever without any preconceptions.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - drdunlap - 2014-03-09
^^ best? I'd say most annoyingbullsh**-free ヽ(´ー｀)ノ
I've made some cool friends online (mostly via FC2 doing my own broadcasts and becoming popular) but the closest people I know are those I met out and about and quickly became friends with.
WARNING: This may or may not be exclusive to Osaka. (´・ω・｀)
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - Stansfield123 - 2014-03-09
afterglowefx Wrote:The hardest part about living in Japan is that talking to strangers in ninety-nine percent of cases is out of the question.You're making it sound like not being able to talk to strangers on the street is some kind of crushing burden. Doesn't seem like it is...
Personally, I'd be more bothered by bad traffic, or inconsiderate people, or high crime rates, or bad food, or dirty public spaces, or widespread poverty, or pollution, or censorship, or any number of things that can be said about most places on Earth.
Oh yeah, poisonous snakes. I'd definitely be more bothered by poisonous snakes than strangers ignoring each other.
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - gc_3k - 2014-03-09
I understand the grievances of some people here, and it's actually relieving to read that it isn't just happening to me. In my experience, Japanese make overt gestures that may give you the impression that you're not wanted, even in a pubic venue. It's not simply unfriendly faces on the street. It's death stares, people walking on the same sidewalk abruptly darting into alleys or convenience stores, indignantly leaving their train seat or the department store because you're in the vicinity, the convenience store clerk pulling out and slamming the money tray on the counter when you're next in line... other silly gestures. If you don't have a lot of friends who treat you like a regular person, or you have a daily commute, it could play a lot of tricks with your head, and assault your insecurities (if you allow it to). It's really important to have a stable of friends who won't treat you like a sore thumb, and to remind yourself that it's not you, or anything you're doing in particular.
And yes, that's still more appealing to me than the Wild West attitude in Florida, or the harsh cost of living in America's cities. But personally, after a decade of living here off and on since 2000, I've basically exhausted my resources and have no reason to stay here-- if I did have a reason (like... a job, for starters), I wouldn't leave anytime soon.
I've been lurking on this (fantastic) site, slowly building my kanji recognition and general literacy, but this exact topic deeply affected me a couple of years ago. And it still does, but I've learned to accept it and find ways to cope. I just don't remember this happening when I first arrived in Japan-- I'd get the stares, and even some racism, but not the relentless "gestures."
Are you more cynical after having lived in Japan? - NightSky - 2014-03-09
Honestly I think you have conditioned your own mind to see things that aren't even there. Complaining about relentless "gestures" makes you sound like a genuine super paranoid crazy person.