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+--- Thread: How do you read? (/thread-11636.html)
How do you read? - weatherman - 2014-02-27
I always like to talk to people about how they got to be good at whatever foreign language they speak, and a common response is that they have read a lot of books (novels, comics, non-fiction, whatever) or watched a lot of TV in that foreign language.
Everyone seems to have their own approach to reading in a foreign language, however, and so I'm curious what approach posters here take and why they think that approach works best for them.
Some common approaches I've heard of:
1) Reading straight through without stopping except to underline problematic words and then going back after finishing a section to look up and review those words.
2) Skimming through the section to be read beforehand, looking up the words that look problematic, and writing those words and their definitions on a notepad or the cover of the book (in the case of a comic). Then referring to those definitions while reading the book.
3) Looking up words while reading and writing the definitions down in the book (above the printed word) or on a notepad.
4) Just reading without looking up unfamiliar words (understanding them through context) and then hoping those words will soak into the brain over time, without actively studying or reviewing them.
Personally, I've used several of the above methods while learning Korean (mostly #3 and #4) and have seen good results. I find that the thought of looking up words first, as in #2, makes me not want to read at all and that I don't have the energy to look up words after finishing reading as in #1. With #4, I question how much new vocabulary I'm learning and retaining, though I do think reading this way helps solidify my understanding/command of words and grammar I already know. And with #3, I've mostly written the definitions in the book as I go, but now I'm thinking about switching over to a notepad so that I have something portable to review and don't have to flip back through the pages each time I want to remember the meaning of a word as I read. It's more cumbersome in a way to have to use a notepad, but I've found I don't really review what I learn when I write the definitions in the book as I go.
I'm just now getting to the point where I can look at manga in Japanese and still have a long way to go with Korean, so it'd be great to hear what people who have greater mastery than me have been doing and seen success (especially in regard to vocabulary expansion) with.
How do you read? - Zarxrax - 2014-02-27
If I mostly get the gist of whats going on, I go with number 4.
If I get completely lost, I do something along the lines of either #1 or #3. There's no enjoyment without understanding, so sometimes its pretty fruitless to keep going without stopping to learn.
How do you read? - Fillanzea - 2014-02-27
I think it's really important to spend at least some of your time on #4. There has been research done that suggests that the sheer quantity of words you read has a big impact on your proficiency -- and that means reading maybe a million words. (In English, 1 million words is The Hobbit plus the Lord of the Rings trilogy plus the first four Harry Potter books. Word counting in Japanese is obviously a more complicated matter.)
(Hiroshi Nishizawa found that it took about 100,000 words for students to stop translating in their heads; and after 3 million words they showed the same gains on their test scores as students who'd spent a year in the US. That info is from this video:
at about the 15:00 mark. I'm not sure quite which paper Ben Shearon is referring to, but a number of Nishizawa's papers are on the web here. http://jera-tadoku.jp/papers/index.html)
Reading a million words while looking up every single one of them that's new to you is vastly more time-consuming, and probably more boring to most people, than reading a million words with far less dictionary lookup. (Which shouldn't mean wandering around in a haze of partial understanding; the idea is to choose books simple enough so that you can read them without too much dictionary lookup.) Reading without much dictionary use means that you don't broaden your vocabulary quite as much, but you gain much more context and richness and flexibility with the more common words in the language, because you get to see them a lot of different times in a lot of different contexts.
So that's my plug for extensive reading. I don't think it should be the only thing you do, but if you can set a big word count (or page count) goal for yourself in addition to the more intensive reading that you do, I think it can make a big difference.
When I'm reading more intensively, my preference is to underline while I'm reading and go back later, just because I hate juggling a dictionary and a book and a notebook all at the same time -- and because I think it's a nice test of what I can get from context while I'm in the middle of reading.
How do you read? - sholum - 2014-02-28
I don't bother looking up words unless they really bother me (either they show up a lot or are crucial to my understanding of the book; usually one means the other). It hasn't done too much for my vocabulary, but my reading speed and comprehension have definitely increased (unfortunately, I don't have any kind of measurement for you). I'm experimenting with reading a book while SRSing a vocabulary list derived from the book (using books I can turn into plain text files, of course), but I haven't done this for long enough to say whether or not it's particularly helpful compared to other methods, though it should be, in theory.
I think that the method that allows you to read the most while still gaining vocabulary is the best way to go; some people can withstand reading while looking up every unknown word, but people like me find it too painful to go through a book like that; maybe it's better when you know most of the words in a book, but by that point, you shouldn't really need to look up every unknown word anyway.
I generally reserve intensive reading for news articles; this is mainly because I love reading news regarding the sciences, so I have a ton of more specialized vocabulary I need to learn when reading articles about medicine or nuclear power (both of which are very popular topics at the moment).
How do you read? - weatherman - 2014-02-28
Thanks for the replies. I have to admit I wasn't familiar with the terms "extensive reading" and "intensive reading" before now, but it's interesting to know those terms are out there and that there's debate about them. After reading y'all's posts and watching part of the talk Fillanzea linked to (which was really helpful for me, by the way--thank you), I may focus more on extensive reading while still keeping a notepad handy for words I'm especially interested in. With Japanese, though, I think any reading I do is going to have to be "intensive" for quite some time; there are just too many words I don't know.
I'm still curious about the best way to balance reading extensively with picking up new vocabulary through reading, however, especially when it comes to the logistics of looking up, recording, and reviewing word definitions. Personally, I'm just burnt out on Anki cards and word lists, and it'd be great if there was a more natural/enjoyable, but still effective, way of acquiring new vocabulary.
How do you read? - Aikynaro - 2014-02-28
I do #4 only.
I've noticed something interesting: For the first few chapters, a book usually feels quite difficult and it feels like there's a lot of new words. After a while that feeling disappears. Even actually quite difficult books feel much easier the deeper in I get.
Of course, learning words with Anki is faster and I think the best way to go for building up the general base of words you need - but reading isn't even study. It's entertainment, like anything else you might do. That it has positive language learning outcomes is a bonus.
How do you read? - Yatagarasu - 2014-02-28
I did #4 almost exclusively while learning English but for some reason skipping words really bothers me when trying to read Japanese. I think it's because in English I could somewhat figure out how the words are pronounced in my mind whereas in Japanese even if I understand it by context I consciously realize there's a whole word missing from the sentence. So I guess I find myself doing #3 more often, but I don't really write them down or anything...
How do you read? - Fillanzea - 2014-02-28
There's an increasing amount of research done on to what extent vocabulary can be acquired through extensive reading; here's one study:
http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/rfl/april2006/pigada/pigada.html
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any such studies done for Chinese or Japanese, where if you're doing extensive reading you can get tripped up by not knowing the reading for a certain kanji, or guessing the wrong reading in a compound.
But most of the research I've read suggests that you can definitely learn vocabulary through extensive reading, though you won't learn every word you encounter once, and you won't even learn every word you encounter 20 times.
Suggested reading strategies:
1) Look up words that get to the threshold of "I've seen that word a bunch of times and it's bugging me." Learn those. Look up words that are key to understanding what you're reading but you can't pick up from context. (Reading manga, I got really good at parsing out "This is just technobabble, it really doesn't matter what it means exactly!")
2) Spend most of your time reading books that you can read extensively. (Unfortunately there are not a lot of graded readers out for Japanese, but there are a few.) When you read books that require intensive reading, do that.
3) Don't bother with Anki. (This is just an idea, not a pronouncement! I like Anki but if you're burnt out, you're burnt out.) When you make a word list from a book, review it once the next day and then move on. You won't learn every word, but you'll prime yourself for the next time you see a word.
IMO the biggest problem with using Anki for intensive reading at the intermediate level is that you wind up learning a lot of really obscure words that you're not going to see again for another several months. And eventually you wind up with a couple of hundred words in there that aren't getting reinforced by actual language contact, and you just have to brute-force memorize them and they don't stick...
How do you read? - mc962 - 2014-02-28
You might want to look around for graded reader types of books, depending on your level. I recently finished some of the really short stories such as "Three Little Pigs" and "Why is the Monkey's Tail So Short, Why Does the Jellyfish Have No Bones?" While I think my reading level was a bit higher than those particular books (they were at one of the lowest level on their scale), it was nice reading something where I knew most all of the vocab and kanji. More importantly, it gave me practice reading a full story instead of the short textbook paragraphs I normally see. If you can find them they might be worth giving a look
How do you read? - egoplant - 2014-02-28
Recently I've just been trying to get novels in pure text so I can use rikai-sama with them. The words I think I'll have trouble remembering I add to a text file to import to Anki later. Pretty basic.
How do you read? - dtcamero - 2014-03-01
egoplant Wrote:Recently I've just been trying to get novels in pure text so I can use rikai-sama with them. The words I think I'll have trouble remembering I add to a text file to import to Anki later. Pretty basic.you can order books from amazon.co.jp and have them sent to densika.com for a professional OCR. they then send you the scannable, copy-paste-able PDF file. you can even do it with used books. it's a pretty cheap service.
How do you read? - sunehiro - 2014-03-01
RTK being done completely, my reading method is:
known words:
1) Read all the known Kana words
2) just read all the known kanji words (without be bothered too much by the RTK keyword)
for words I don't know:
1) read the kana word (without understanding it)
2) recognize the RTK keyword of the kanji
3) look up the words I need (very rare, I skip this step sometimes)
Doing so I'm able to follow the story without slowing down too much and globally enjoying the book/manga (I'm at 5k with core + All about particles deck completed).
How do you read? - Stansfield123 - 2014-03-02
Fillanzea Wrote:There's an increasing amount of research done on to what extent vocabulary can be acquired through extensive reading; here's one study:It's easy to find out how frequent a word is (be it in the text you're reading, or overall), before deciding whether to add it to SRS.
http://nflrc.hawaii.edu/rfl/april2006/pigada/pigada.html
Unfortunately, I haven't seen any such studies done for Chinese or Japanese, where if you're doing extensive reading you can get tripped up by not knowing the reading for a certain kanji, or guessing the wrong reading in a compound.
But most of the research I've read suggests that you can definitely learn vocabulary through extensive reading, though you won't learn every word you encounter once, and you won't even learn every word you encounter 20 times.
Suggested reading strategies:
1) Look up words that get to the threshold of "I've seen that word a bunch of times and it's bugging me." Learn those. Look up words that are key to understanding what you're reading but you can't pick up from context. (Reading manga, I got really good at parsing out "This is just technobabble, it really doesn't matter what it means exactly!")
2) Spend most of your time reading books that you can read extensively. (Unfortunately there are not a lot of graded readers out for Japanese, but there are a few.) When you read books that require intensive reading, do that.
3) Don't bother with Anki. (This is just an idea, not a pronouncement! I like Anki but if you're burnt out, you're burnt out.) When you make a word list from a book, review it once the next day and then move on. You won't learn every word, but you'll prime yourself for the next time you see a word.
IMO the biggest problem with using Anki for intensive reading at the intermediate level is that you wind up learning a lot of really obscure words that you're not going to see again for another several months. And eventually you wind up with a couple of hundred words in there that aren't getting reinforced by actual language contact, and you just have to brute-force memorize them and they don't stick...
Or, even better, if you have a txt file of the text you're planning on reading, you can semi-automate the process by creating a deck of the most frequent unknown words in your text, before you even start reading. And then you can study the deck, knowing that everything you learn you will need both soon and frequently.
How do you read? - Daikoru - 2014-03-02
Personally, I don't read novels, but play RPGs instead. And I've pretty much alternated between just reading through and picking all the new words I come across, placing them into Anki.
In my early reading stages, I would just pick a game with very few Kanji like Mario RPG and add all the new Kanji words as they appear. While I didn't understand a lot, it gave a nice rhythm between adding new words and just having fun. Every time I completed a game, I'd look for a game destined for a slightly more aged audience, keeping the new entries appearing at about the same rate.
Nowadays, reading japanese takes much less effort. I now alternate between two games. For when I'm at home, I play the early Final Fantasy games, aiming for 100% comprehension by seeking all unknown words and grammar rules (the rhythm stays nice because there's not a lot of speaking in early FF games, but the amount of speaking increases as I go up in titles). For when I'm travelling (2 hours a day), I play Golden Sun, which doesn't have a lot of Kanji (but these characters just won't shut up!), seeking only to understand from what I know, and noting down words that bother me.
I think it has a nice balance to it. With the texts higher than your current level, you get to increase what you can understand, whereas with the texts lower than you current level, you get to solidify what you already know and further increase your reading speed.
How do you read? - weatherman - 2014-03-02
Thanks again for all the replies. I spent the weekend using different reading strategies with a Japanese manga. Looking at the results, I think getting a graded reader is going to be best for me since I'm just not at the point where I can breeze through a manga in the way needed for extensive reading. I had a lot of fun when I read the manga intensively and feel like I was exposed to a lot of new things; it's just that it was hard work and I know I'm not going to feel like doing it often (maybe once every few days or once a week). For that reason, I'm probably going to focus on extensive reading while mixing in the occasional intensive reading session--and I might try to do the same with some games later on if I can. Whatever method I use, though, I'm going to write down words I look up since I know for certain that I will just forget them if I don't.
I know Anki is a great method for learning new vocabulary, but it stresses me out and starts to feel like too much of a chore. I may try a strategy I encountered in an online talk in which you put all of the information on the front of the card for a no-pressure review, however. I also like the idea of preparing for a book by adding the most common unknown words from it to SRS; I'll try to play around with ways of doing that.
Thanks again for all the advice!
On a bit of a side note, on Sundays, I volunteer as a tutor for a North Korean woman who has "defected" to the South and, the last few weeks, we've been going through a science magazine together. She wanted to do this instead of the textbook we had been using as a kind of "kill two birds with one stone" type of thing (she's a college student and interested in science), and although I thought the text would be way too difficult for her, I've noticed her English has improved a great deal. From what I can tell, she reads through the text a couple of times on her own while looking up each of the words before our meeting. Then we read the text together and talk about what each sentence means, part by part. It seems to be very effective. (Caveat: In the same time period, this woman's started watching American shows and memorizing sentences from the scripts over the past month instead, so the improvement could be attributed to that instead.)
How do you read? - juniperpansy - 2014-03-02
I find reading online with rikaichan (or similiar on-the-fly dictionary apps) is way better for learning.
I have for the most part given up on printed books. They are not as efficient
How do you read? - Aikynaro - 2014-03-03
I actually find (level appropriate) novels easier than manga. The extra context given by all the other words seems to make it easier to guess unknown words (or skip them as unimportant) than manga - where sure, you have pictures for context, but the words that are on the page are more important. Or something like that. Of course, the easiest manga are still easier than the easiest novels.
What you try and read is important. It's almost always easier to find something easier than what you currently have, so if you're trying something with several unknown words per sentence you can always level down easily assuming you have easy access to books. The ふたごの魔法つかい books are the best 'beginner' books I've read, but, say, みならい妖精モモ is easier (albeit not particularly interesting). But I guess graded readers are an option if children's novels don't sound like your thing.
How do you read? - howtwosavealif3 - 2014-03-03
the way i read depends on what I'm reading whether it's in my native language or my second language. if i really like it and find it really interesting then maybe i'll go out of my way to read everything and try to understand everything but if it's something i don't really care about or i'm not that into it i'll skim it it/don't care if i know every word i'm reading.
How do you read? - Daikoru - 2014-03-03
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:the way i read depends on what I'm reading whether it's in my native language or my second language. if i really like it and find it really interesting then maybe i'll go out of my way to read everything and try to understand everything but if it's something i don't really care about or i'm not that into it i'll skim it it/don't care if i know every word i'm reading.I actually keep interesting materials for later. The first games I played in japanese were games where the story isn't a selling point of the game. Pokemon, Mario RPG, Rockman.Exe... And as my comprehension increase, I also increase in the importance of the story. I keep games where I WANT to read the story for when I'll achieve a very good overall comprehension.
By doing that, it does not become frustrating to be unable to understand something from a game, since it is not important to understand it. I just read what I understand, pick a few words I don't understand, then go on.
On a side-note, after a good while, you should give another try at one of the first reading material you've used. It's very fun and motivating to see how much you can now understand compared to your beginnings.