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Japanese narrative models - umetani666 - 2014-02-24
i am curious about storytelling models that are unique to japan(or asia in general?).
in the west, by far the most popular and widespread is three-act structure, that dates back to aristotle and classical greek theatre. majority of films and books comply to this model. for example, i recently watch 'jagten' and its three act structure was very clear.
on the other hand, a lot of japanese films/books i've seen/read don't follow the 3-act structure. my impressions are: often there is no conflict among protagonists; structure is very loose, almost non-existent; main organisational principle appears to be time - what seems like a collection of incidental occurencies at first, takes form through passage of time. for example, random events in 茶の味 that in the end cohere into a clear narrative.
so, does anybody know what was traditionally the preferred way of telling a story in japan? or if there was one at all?
Japanese narrative models - Fillanzea - 2014-02-24
Take a look at 起承転結/ kishoutenketsu:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kish%C5%8Dtenketsu
http://blog.tewaters.com/2013/01/on-narrative-structure-kishotenketsu.html#!/2013/01/on-narrative-structure-kishotenketsu.html
http://stilleatingoranges.tumblr.com/post/25153960313/the-significance-of-plot-without-conflict
Kishoutenketsu originally was a model for classical Chinese poetry, with 起, 承, 転, and 結 each describing one line of a four-line poem. But you do see it held up more broadly as a model for fiction and essays; heck, I have a book on writing yaoi novels that holds up 起承転結 as the model plot structure!
I think the third link is somewhat coming at things from the wrong angle when it says how 起承転結 generates 'plot without conflict.' It's not as if there aren't Japanese murder mysteries and melodramatic soap operas and movies with a lot of car chases and shooting! But if you look at a movie like 'Infernal Affairs' (which is HK, not Japanese, but I watched it recently so it's fresh in my memory), what gets revealed through the course of the story is much more important than who wins.
Japanese narrative models - qwertyytrewq - 2014-02-24
What about "black and white", "good vs evil" morality and the blurring of lines in the sand in regards to bad guy and good guys?
Disney cartoons: Good guy vs bad guy. The good guy is 100% good. The bad guy is 100% bad. The good guy wins. The bad guys loses.
Examples: pretty much every Disney cartoon?
Japanese cartoons:
1) Princess Mononoke: The good guy is 100% good. The good girl is mostly good, but may perform disagreeable actions (killing) in her pursuit of goodness. The woman is good to people on her side (the lepers etc) but bad to people not on her side (the giant wolves). The man is amoral (likes money).
2) My Neighbor Totoro: The protagonist is the girl. There are no antagonists. There is no good guy vs bad guy here.
Japanese narrative models - DrJones - 2014-02-24
Actually, in japanese cartoons it works this way:
1) Ghibli: The adult people is evil and stupid and only wants to destroy nature and themselves (thus angering the nature gods), but there's still hope in the young generation, so here's a cartoon you can use to teach them how to be ecologists and feminists.
2) Shonen: Here's a premise and let's show the implications of that premise; when the author runs out of ideas, the story turns into a battle manga; when the public gets bored, each main character gets a romantic interest and the story ends abruptly.
3) most of the rest: don't try to make any sense of the story, as we are making it up as we go, but here are some gratuitous panty shots, terrible male models and stupid jokes so that you can laugh at our failure as a society.
Now, if you are talking about storytelling models, they aren't unique to Japan but to Asia as well. The classic model is about a kid that has a lovely pet, the pet dies/gets lost, so someone gives a gift to the kid so that he or she is no longer sad.
The second "classic" model in japanese literature is used not only in Asia, but in the entire world, and it has been used so often it's no longer funny. It's about a talented kid that makes a lot of talented friends. They travel in a group until they find a powerful enemy that has many allies. However, the talented kid uses the talents of his/her friends to defeat the enemy. Usually this requires each friend to die/leave the group at every step, so by the time the kid fights the villain, he has to do it alone.
Japanese narrative models - Hirakana - 2014-02-24
I feel like there might be a little bit of cynicism on this board...
Japanese narrative models - tashippy - 2014-02-24
I was thinking about storytelling today, and why a seemingly concrete structure is almost universally adhered to, figuring that it's kind of restrictive to put everything into a conventional conception of time by using plots and good/evil, set-up/problem/solution. But then I thought, well it seems that all societies have pretty much independently developed storytelling traditions that take liberties with reality in order to maintain a plot archetype with entertainment and lessons/morals/though-provoking.
In regards to Japanese movies, I think that even the very first films in Japan were influenced by the west, as that is where the technology to tell video stories was pioneered. Perhaps you might look further back, like Genji or Pillow or the Chinese poetry Fillanzea mentioned. 茶の味 is an exception, usually it's a bit more like the little girl or boy with a sick pet plot DrJones described.
There are certainly elements that are unique to Japanese cinema that come from Japanese culture. I keep an eye out for the use of 間 in Ozu and other Japanese filmmakers' works, but I'd like to learn more of these tidbits so I can further enjoy watching.
Japanese narrative models - umetani666 - 2014-02-26
first of all, thanks for the links, Fillanzea!
kishotenketsu link led me to jo-ha-kyu, which is used in traditional japanese drama. since most modern storytelling arts(like novels and movies) are obviously heavily influenced by plays, this could be something worth learning more about.
it also led me to something called zuihitsu, which is i think what i was thinking about when i mentioned 茶の味
Fillanzea Wrote:But if you look at a movie like 'Infernal Affairs' (which is HK, not Japanese, but I watched it recently so it's fresh in my memory), what gets revealed through the course of the story is much more important than who wins.this is a good point. it's what i meant by 'no conflict', but your description is better.
qwertyytrewq Wrote:What about "black and white", "good vs evil" morality and the blurring of lines in the sand in regards to bad guy and good guys?i don't know much about anime, so can't really comment on that. but i've noticed one thing: it seems that there is still this idea of 'author' present in japanese cartoons. i rarely watch anime, but even i can name at least 4-5 japanese anime directors, like miyazaki, satoshi kon, mamoru oshii, isao takahata. i'm sure fans know many more.
Disney cartoons: Good guy vs bad guy. The good guy is 100% good. The bad guy is 100% bad. The good guy wins. The bad guys loses.
Examples: pretty much every Disney cartoon?
on the other hand i have no idea who directed toy story, monsters inc, shrek, finding nemo, up...i guess that's why they're all the same...
and totoro is an excellent example. i completely forgot about it.
tashippy Wrote:In regards to Japanese movies, I think that even the very first films in Japan were influenced by the west, as that is where the technology to tell video stories was pioneered.this is true, but early films were also influenced by theatre and drama conventions. in japan's case, that would be noh or kabuki, not some western drama. i think...
tashippy Wrote:茶の味 is an exception, usually it's a bit more like the little girl or boy with a sick pet plot DrJones described.really? you think it's an exception? i see the same approach in shunji iwai movies like 'april story', 'lily chou chou' and 'hana and alice' - spontaneous style without the intrusion of formal structure or plan.
i think i've come across some writings on 間 in ozu...i'll have to search for it again
DrJones Wrote:Now, if you are talking about storytelling models, they aren't unique to Japan but to Asia as well. The classic model is about a kid that has a lovely pet, the pet dies/gets lost, so someone gives a gift to the kid so that he or she is no longer sad.is this from children's literature or something? because stories for kids usually have different structure than adult stuff.