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Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - Printable Version

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Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - synewave - 2006-09-24

Got a bit confused when I came to review a few frames the other day. The Heisig stroke count doesn't agree with the site. Checking my kanji book, it appears that Heisig has made an error regarding the stroke count of the cornucopia primative when it appears to the right or underneath another primative.

1508 shout Heisig says 5 - correct stroke count is 6
1509 twist Heisig says 8 - correct stroke count is 9
1511 lowly Heisig says 8 - correct stroke count is 9
1512 tombstone Heisig says 13 - correct stroke count is 14

I was just wondering if there are other frames where the Heisig stroke count doesn't agree with the site coz then I can study the character correctly from the start.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - ziggr - 2006-09-24

Hmm, my RTK I (3rd edition) lists the correct stroke counts:

Code:
1508 叫 shout     :  6 strokes (3 for cornucopia, 3 for mouth)
1509 糾 twist     :  9 strokes (3 for cornucopia, 6 for string)
1511 卑 lowly     :  9 strokes (3 for cornucopia, 1 for drop, 5 for brains)
1512 碑 tombstone : 14 strokes (9 for lowly, 5 for rock)
Just for grins, I checked these kanji in Tejina and JEDict (Kanjidic data), and they all match the correct "3 strokes for cornucopia" counts.

Which edition of RTK I do you have that lists the erroneous "2 strokes for cornucopia"?

Thankfully, Fabrice's http://kanji.koohii.com/ data has the stroke count correct.

--Z

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - synewave - 2006-09-25

Wierd...I've got the 4th edition - also on the cumulative errata for the 4th edition, it has the 2 stroke cornucopia.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - astridtops - 2006-09-25

I remember having the same problem with the "tusk" kanji　牙. I couldn't write it with the stroke count Heisig gave me, and my Kanji Dictionary gave an extra stroke. Also, Heisig gives 3 strokes for 子, whereas I saw my Japanese teacher clearly write it with 2 strokes, and again my KD says 2 strokes as well. I'm sure there are more examples.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - Christoph - 2006-09-25

I've seen a few examples of this kind of thing, the one about 子　is a good one, I've seen this character documented many times and it always has 3 strokes, yet I have seen more than one Japanese person write it with just 2, when I asked they just shrugged at me 「どっちでもいいね～」。　I think technically there are 3, but when written it's usually 2　for ease/haste.

As for 叫　and the others with the cornucopia primitive, it's probably the same thing or thereabouts, it's most likely that technically speaking, the primitive is probably 3, but heisig with 叫 as Japanese people with 子　(and probably others aswell), shorten the count for ease of writing.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - Pangolin - 2006-09-25

I agree with Christoph there. Writing 子 with 2 strokes does feel quite natural after writing it many times, but it's conventionally 3.

Another example of this variance is阝(pinnacle/city walls primitive) the first 2 strokes of which resemble the first 2 strokes of 子. This radical is also seen written with 2 strokes, although it's "officially" 3.

I expect there are others.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - ファブリス - 2006-09-25

This is an interesting point.

I guess the "official" stroke count, as used in dictionaries, is based on the "printed" style, that is the kaisho style in calligraphy, with a brush. I've never seen this explicitly mentioned anywhere though.

With a pen, the stroke count can be lower. It's easy to connect the first two strokes of *cornucopia* into a kind of hook. In the same manner, I have seen in a japanese letter I received, the first two strokes of *taskmaster* also become one, with the same hook shape. The same happens in 年, strokes 4 and 5 can be written as one. In hand written form the first two strokes of 白 can also be easily connected (which happens in gyousho style if I remember well).

I would stick to the "printed" style while writing down characters during reviews though. The hand written shortcuts come naturally from that.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - JimmySeal - 2006-09-25

The kanji kentei would closely adhere to the official stroke counts and expect test-takers to write characters with the correct number of strokes, so
2 strokes for the left side of 収 but 3 strokes for the right side of 叫ぶ, even though they both look like three strokes in print.

They'd expect the scarf primitive (the bottom part of 衣) to have 4 strokes, not 5, though it looks like 5 in print.

It's easy to blend together the strokes in 子, but there's no denying that it's officially 3 strokes.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - synewave - 2006-09-25

astridtops Wrote:I remember having the same problem with the "tusk" kanji　牙. I couldn't write it with the stroke count Heisig gave me, and my Kanji Dictionary gave an extra stroke.
Not reached tusk yet but will keep an eye out for it. Thanks.

I suppose there can be plenty debate regarding stroke count once you get into 習字（しゅうじ）, calligraphy can look beautiful, but personally I'm only really interested in the official stroke counts. The way Japanese actually write 漢字 often varies from officialdom but the same can be said for writing in our native language. Bad handwriting is bad handwriting whatever language you speak!

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - laxxy - 2006-09-27

Sometimes the references do not agree -- e.g. Halpern and TakaDB both list 収 with 5 strokes (with the right vertical line written first, btw), as does a popular Russian kanji dictionary.

I think http://kakijun.main.jp/ (click 漢字の検索) can serve as an "official" reference.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - Raichu - 2006-09-27

My old Tuttle Toyo kanji dictionary lists 収 with 4 strokes (cornucopia on the left) but 叫 with 5 (on the right). The kanji are handdrawn, and the two cornucopias looks different.

I have a newer Joyo kanji dictionary also published by Tuttle, but I'm not as happy with it. It lists 子 as 2 strokes although says in the preface that some people count it as 3.

My older dictionary makes a point of saying that it follows the Japanese Ministry of Education, so it probably was official enough in its day. But who knows if what's "official" has changed over the years.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - Pangolin - 2006-12-01

Raichu Wrote:My old Tuttle Toyo kanji dictionary lists 収 with 4 strokes (cornucopia on the left) but 叫 with 5 (on the right). The kanji are handdrawn, and the two cornucopias looks different.
Just spotted discussion of cornucopia on another thread and realised I hadn't picked up on this, the "two cornucopias" seem different in several respects, to the extent that I wonder if they are actually the same component.

I'm not sure if anyone has mentioned this, but it's not only the stroke count that is different when "cornucopia" is in "hen" mode (left-side) but the stroke order.

When on the left (2 strokes) the long vertical stroke comes first, and the second stroke is the L shaped part; when in other positions (3 strokes) the short vertical stroke is first, the horizontal stroke second and the long vertical stroke last.

As there is no stroke order diagram for 収 in RTK1 the implication is that the L shape is first and the vertical stroke last. None of my usual authorities agree with this.

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - raulir - 2006-12-03

Quick googling produced this, as unauthoritative as it is: http://4-ch.net/nihongo/kareha.pl/1144670440/

Peculiar. Some kanji dictionaries indeed give 4 strokes and others 5. The one I checked first is 学習研究社漢字源改訂新版 of Canon wordtank G50, and it gave 4. It also gives as 参考 this a bit cryptic comment: 小学校で教える筆順は、左側を二画に書く。(cryptic because the possibility of writing the left side with 3 strokes is not even mentioned) In any case, it contradicts the link above.

I wonder how it's written when done with three strokes. It would seem logical to me to write it in the same way (including order) as on the right when written with 3 strokes, but I've seen stroke orders (as opposed to just stroke counts) given only for the 2-stroke case.

Maybe what's being taught in schools has changed (semi-)recently? I've been wondering about it since I saw 済's lower right written in "||--" order in some learning material (basic kanji book?), asked a Japanese teacher about it and she agreed that's how it's written, but everywhere else (including the wordtank stroke order function) I've only seen "|--|".

Heisig errors? (stroke-count for "cornucopia") - JimmySeal - 2006-12-03

I think 4 is definitely the more accepted stroke count. I'm looking at the 旺文社　標準漢和辞典 (apparently revised 1991) and it shows the character as four strokes with the vertical stroke drawn first.