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に and で differences - trumpet - 2014-02-09
in some cases i cannot figure out why either に or で are used instead of the other one and i wonder if in these cases they are interchangeable. or, if they're not, what the difference is between the two of them. it has to do with when に is used for existence and で is used for the location of an action.
赤十字は国際的な機関だ。世界中の国で活力している。
彼は今でも演劇界に君臨しています。
i cannot tell why either particle is used over the other. if they cannot be used interchangeably and mean the same, what would they mean if you swapped the particles?
and also sentences like
学校で勉強する。
私の父は外務省に勤めている
why does one use de with school where they study but ni for where they work?
に and で differences - Northern_Lord - 2014-02-09
Could it be that 「私の父は外務書に勤めている」 means "My father works FOR the appartment of foreign affairs"? Whereas なになにで勤めている would be "working AT (some place)"?lja
I don't see how で appearing in 学校で勉強する and the first sentence is problematic though?... 世界中 and 学校 are the locations where the verbs 活力する and 勉強する are carried out. Or were these sentences just to contrast the other to sentences?
に and で differences - yudantaiteki - 2014-02-09
trumpet Wrote:in some cases i cannot figure out why either に or で are used instead of the other one and i wonder if in these cases they are interchangeable. or, if they're not, what the difference is between the two of them. it has to do with when に is used for existence and で is used for the location of an action.The first sentence で is marking the location of the action 活力. In the second, に marks the target of the action 君臨. に isn't only for existence, it also marks the "goal" of an action -- the destination of a movement verb, or the target of certain actions (e.g. 紙に書く).
赤十字は国際的な機関だ。世界中の国で活力している。
彼は今でも演劇界に君臨しています。
i cannot tell why either particle is used over the other. if they cannot be used interchangeably and mean the same, what would they mean if you swapped the particles?
Quote:学校で勉強する。勤める means "work for" or "be employed by", so the target of that is marked by に. It's not used to refer to the actual act of doing the job.
私の父は外務省に勤めている
why does one use de with school where they study but ni for where they work?
You will sometimes see some variation in the usage of native speakers, though. I don't know about the examples you gave, but with 待っている, for example. The standard and prescriptive way is to use で, because waiting is considered an action. But because it seems like it's more "existence" because you're not really doing anything, native speakers will often use Xに待っている as well. It may even be that there's some nuance difference between those two.
に and で differences - trumpet - 2014-02-09
it's starting to make a little bit more sense, especially the difference between the second two examples.
about the target vs location though, how do you tell? i can understand it being a target when there's some kind of movement implied with the verb, but does the に in 演劇界に君臨しています mean (and implying) the subject is specifically targeting the location and thus the nuance is in the trying? where as, i dunno, を implies he's beyond simply targeting it and does control\dominate it? because in that sense, i could understand the difference implied between に and で in the first example, 赤十字は国際的な機関だ。世界中の国で活力している。 に would mean setting out on a plan but で means it's already been accomplished?
に and で differences - Vempele - 2014-02-09
Quote:i can understand it being a target when there's some kind of movement implied with the verbTarget as in the thing the action is done to. Also, 君臨する doesn't take を-objects.
Quote:に would mean setting out on a plan but で means it's already been accomplished?に would mean doing 活力 to the countries (which doesn't make sense), で means they're doing 活力 in the countries. (Incidentally, there are only 100 google hits for 活力する, are you sure you didn't misspell it?)
に and で differences - CaLeDee - 2014-02-09
Quote:(Incidentally, there are only 100 google hits for 活力する, are you sure you didn't misspell it?)Yeah I thought it seemed off. I'm pretty sure it should be 活躍.
In my experience, questions like this eventually just sort themselves out with further study. Even if you aren't specifically trying to learn why に/で are used the way they are, you will get to a point where you just know when something is right or wrong. I can't explain why exactly you can't interchange them in the sentences you've given, I just feel they would be wrong/strange if you did. I still have trouble with は/が and it doesn't matter how many in-depth explanations I read, I still just don't have a feel for them, or at least I have the same question you do about に/で, in that I don't know why one is sometimes used over the other. I'm hoping this also will resolve itself over time.
に and で differences - trumpet - 2014-02-09
the sentence is from ko2001 but it's 活力している not 活力する
i am starting to understand better. i've been doing my sentences looking at に this way and so far so good.
に and で differences - yudantaiteki - 2014-02-09
Usually it's not a matter of one particle vs. another particle having any nuance difference, it's just one is right and one is wrong. The "target" idea is an attempt to explain why certain verbs take に, but it's not that people are choosing to use に because they want to add some nuance, that's just the way the verb works.
In other words, we have to go from the way the particles are actually used and derive our explanations from there. You can't start from "Particle X means Y" and then try to imagine where you might want to use it. Even if Xに君臨する seems confusing and Xを君臨する makes more sense to you, you still have to use に. Beginners often learn を as "marking a direct object" or something along those lines, but that doesn't mean that any English phrase that is direct object + verb will be expressed in Japanese with を (or vice versa).
に and で differences - viharati - 2014-02-09
If you analize 君臨, it's（国に）君として臨む, that is "face (to the country) as a monarch".
に and で differences - Vempele - 2014-02-10
trumpet Wrote:the sentence is from ko2001 but it's 活力している not 活力するIt's 活動している.
に and で differences - LazyNomad - 2014-02-10
viharati already explained.
「彼は今でも演劇界に君臨しています。」literally means
"Even these days he looks at the theatrical world as a monarch looks at his kingdom."
hence に and not で or を. In this case the verb meaning defines what particle it can take.
に and で differences - Vempele - 2014-02-10
Translating it just takes it further away from explaining why it takes に (besides, 臨む can take を), so I'm not sure what your point is.
に and で differences - dtcamero - 2014-02-10
I think after a certain point you become familiar enough with the language that you know, on a per verb basis, which particles it takes and what those connections mean in a case-specific way.
the rules can vary to a degree among verbs, and that I think is the cause of this confusion. while we can give general suggestions, the best thing is to know specifically which particle the verb you're trying to use usually takes in the desired situation. not an easy thing by any means but a google search goes a long way to help figure it out.
に and で differences - trumpet - 2014-02-10
Vempele Wrote:yeah you're right. this isnt the first time my anki deck has had a typotrumpet Wrote:the sentence is from ko2001 but it's 活力している not 活力するIt's 活動している.
に and で differences - LazyNomad - 2014-02-11
Vempele Wrote:Translating it just takes it further away from explaining why it takes に (besides, 臨む can take を), so I'm not sure what your point is.What I was trying to say is that better understanding of the literal meaning of a verb, as it is defined in monolingual Japanese dictionaries, gives good basis to feel why に is
better (more natural to the true sense) than を. The verb 君臨する (君主として臣下に臨み､その国を統治すること｡) is not about action （を） of ruling, but more about position (as a king towards his retainers). It needs に to show towards whom one positions as a king.
Also, 臨む (to face something/目の前にする) can`t take を、while 望む (to look from far away/遠くからながめやる｡) can and will take を in most cases.
に and で differences - andikaze - 2014-02-12
外科に勤めてる is "is employed at", which is a state of being
外科で働いてる is "works at", which is an action
you also say 電車に乗る because to "ride" the train, you have to first get in.
but you say 電車で行く because you use the train as a means of transportation.
会議に参加する means you take part in the meeting
会議でスピーチをする means you hold a speech at the meeting.
do you see a trend?