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What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - dizmox - 2014-02-10
I guess I should have said I don't have as much opportunity to pick up words by osmosis as a heavy reader would.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - qwertyytrewq - 2014-02-10
Speaking of katakana, I just got an old mature card wrong today: biniiru (plastic). I incorrectly guessed elastic.
Back to fail it goes.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - ktcgx - 2014-02-11
qwertyytrewq Wrote:Speaking of katakana, I just got an old mature card wrong today: biniiru (plastic). I incorrectly guessed elastic.From "vinyl"?
Back to fail it goes.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - howtwosavealif3 - 2014-02-11
so you've never seen that word used in context in real-life japanese whether it's real life or tv show etc? that's the only reason i can think of as to why you failed. i never added that word to my deck because ijust see it being used and it's common...
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - Fintan - 2014-02-11
Not sure if I should start a new thread on this but as my question is vocab related I have attached it to this thread.
Reading this thread has made me think again about my ambitions. Am not sure if they are realistic.
I am retired from one career in my early 50s. I have a 5 year plan to be a translator (Japanese to English only). I don't expect to earn much, nor will I be good enough or have time to be good enough to go where the good money is (i.e. mostly technical and financial translation. Patent law is a possibility but I would be bored). I am happy to earn less and be more generalist). I lived in Japan many years ago. My Japanese is pants but I talk quite well even now, though the grammar is awful and vocab is limited. I am really starting from scratch with the advantage of useful Japanese exposure.
I have often wondered how much vocab I would need. After doing some research I reckon 15k-20K would do it. After reading this thread I feel I have way underestimated and feel I should be aiming for 40-50K.
I will study Japanese anyway. I want to read novels and go back to live for a while in a few years. I also, have a research project in mind which will need good Japanese. However, I question whether I have the stamina to achieve me aim of being a translator.
On the basis that I have a 7 hour working day to myself, learning 10 words an hour (together with everything else), 5 days a week, for say 50 weeks a years I would learn 17500 words a year (and that assumes I remember them all). That would take me 3 years. Also on the basis that in my experience any plan always takes 30% longer than allowed for we can push this to 4 years. That is 4 years of hard work. Then I reckon it would take 2 years to make a name for myself as a translator and another 2 to earn reasonable money. Eight years in total (maybe less with a fair wind behind me). That make me 61 years old. Don't mind that as I have a good income and I expect to work well into my 70s. This can still be a good pre-post retirement job.
What concerns me is the amount of effort required. Am I really up to it? Only I can answer that.
However, I would like to know, especially from those who have vocab 20000 -40000 plus, how long you have been studying Japanese until you reached a level where you could read most material without recourse to a dictionary all the time? Did you do it under 4 years? Don't suppose there are translators here but if there are any I would love to hear from you.
It seems to be one can achieve operational fluency in 2-3 years but to be really superb is 5-6 years plus. I have had a dose of cold water.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - NightSky - 2014-02-11
I would have thought 15k would be enough to be able to get started in translation, I'm somewhere around there and I think I could probably translate most things sort of okay. That said its suprisingly difficult and suprisingly hard work I think, I found the most difficult part was writing accurate and natural English, as opposed to understanding the Japanese.
That said I think its something you would learn by doing. Get to 10-15k and just start translating things online, you could keep a blog or something where you post a Japanese passage and a translation underneath. The more experience you get doing it the easier it will get. Its not just a question of how many words you know, I think.
The main reason to know more words is so that you don't have to do dictionary lookups as frequently, allowing you to make the translations more quickly.
Disclaimer : I've done bits and pieces of translations for people but nothing professionally.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - Fillanzea - 2014-02-11
Translation doesn't require a huge vocabulary. It requires subject knowledge (for any specialized subjects -- and this includes, for example, making sure that Popular Video Game XVII translates terms the same way as the previous Popular Video Games in the same series) and a real facility with language -- more than an average English native speaker, or even an average college-educated English native speaker. You need to have a good ear for the nuances conveyed by individual words, and for the rhythms of sentences. Obviously this is necessary if you're translating a novel, but even if you're translating technical documents, you need the skill to write clear and lucid prose, and if you're translating movies or manga or other pop culture things, there's a big difference between translations that just convey the literal meaning of the words and those that have the snap and crackle of good dialogue.
Looking things up in a dictionary is no big deal.
Start doing translations for practice as soon as possible (definitely once you know 7,000 words or so.) You might find that vocabulary is less of an obstacle than you think.
(I've done a lot of amateur translating, and a little bit professionally.)
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - dtcamero - 2014-02-11
I've done a little professional translation (usually pays badly, but occasionally great, depending on the client it seems)... and I agree that with the benefit of mouse-over lookup dictionaries you don't need to be nearly that good ;P
more important than vocab is catching the exact nuance of unusual turns of phrase. not something vocab would help at all really... more an exposure issue I think.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - sholum - 2014-02-11
ktcgx Wrote:Personally, it always sounds more like 'veneer' than 'vinyl' to me, which is probably why I have trouble with it (I use 'veneer' more than 'vinyl' in English). I tried telling myself to remember it as some kind of cheap plastic veneer, but since I've never seen something with a plastic veneer, it's hard to associate it like that.qwertyytrewq Wrote:Speaking of katakana, I just got an old mature card wrong today: biniiru (plastic). I incorrectly guessed elastic.From "vinyl"?
Back to fail it goes.
Why couldn't it just have been バイナール or something like that... Oh well, it usually clicks if I see it while reading, but it's one of those words that trips me up for a second when I see it.
@Fintan
As for translating, I've done some basic translating for people; once it was an update log for some program/site and I've been requested several things that looked suspiciously like game scripts (not that I care). In every case, the hardest things to translate are idioms or phrases that you don't know and which don't translate well, unknown super abstract words/words that don't really exist in English, and place names that you're unfamiliar with (especially if they're not Japanese locations). Other than those, a quick dictionary search can solve problems with unknown vocabulary. Also, depending on what you're translating, patterns can also help you breeze through a translation. The update log I mentioned was a page or so long (though each line was really short), so I thought it would take me two lazy rounds of translating to finish it, but the majority of the updates were simply talking about how many users had registered, when preregistration opened and ended, and how many users were accessing the system each day on average. After doing one or two, the rest were easy to complete and the only problem I had had to do with the service's expansion into other locations.
So yeah, you could probably do all kinds of translating with 10-15k words and just keep a dictionary handy (not to mention you'll be learning some while translating). Like others have mentioned, you should probably start working on some kind of portfolio (blog sites make this easier) and get used to translating by doing some simple translations for free. This will also tell you if you really want to be doing this kind of thing while being paid per page. Translating is a lot more difficult than just understanding Japanese, not that I want to push you away from it.
I would suggest starting with J-E; I've found E-J to be much more difficult without a good grasp of Japanese, which I don't have (specifically production wise, which is important for producing good E-J translations).
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - vileru - 2014-02-11
@Fintan
I translated travel brochures and legal documents for opening a small business (these were separate projects done for separate clients) only a few months after passing the N2 exam. I estimate that I only had a vocabulary of 7-8,000 words at the time. Moreover, there are plenty of translators with only N2 certification, although most of them work in language pairs with few Japanese speakers, e.g. native speakers of Eastern European, African, and Middle Eastern languages.
Admittedly, compared to patent law, translating documents for a small business is a cakewalk. Nonetheless, as Fillanzea mentioned, what's really important in translation is specialized knowledge in your native language. You need to be widely read and proficient at writing in whatever field you specialize in. Most translators use CAT (computer-assisted translation) programs and electronic/online dictionaries, so looking up words isn't much of a setback. However, not knowing the style of writing in your field is a major detriment.
Furthermore, knowing how to naturally phrase common Japanese constructions into English is an important skill as well. Especially when it comes to fields like advertising, you'll often find phrases that can't be translated literally. I sink in my chair every time I come across a volitional verb ending (意向系) because it's outright bizarre to say something like "Let's enjoy Japan!" in English. Such cases require you to naturally express the emotions behind the words.
Although I never really have to translate the phrase "宜しくお願いします," I absolutely hate having to interpret it whenever I introduce a Japanese-speaker to an English-speaker. In English, we usually say something appropriate to the circumstances when introducing ourselves, e.g. "I look forward to doing business with you" or "I'm so glad I've finally found someone who is also a diehard pre-WWII Japanese vintage stamp collector!" In Japanese, however, regardless of the circumstances, all you have to say is simply "宜しくお願いします。" I love how scripted introductions are in Japanese since I'm usually too nervous to be bothered with saying something original or context appropriate when I introduce myself. But oh how I loathe to interpret them. I usually just end up saying, "S/he says nice to meet you," although I know that doesn't really express the emotional content of the phrase.
Anyway, my point is that finding ways to naturally phrase difficult-to-translate phrases is the most difficult part of translation. After 10,000 words, dictionary lookups won't significantly slow you down. Your ability to render Japanese into natural English is what matters.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - TsugiAshi - 2014-02-11
I've read two blogs that helped me decide my vocabulary goals. One was written by a user on this site (I forgot the username) who learned 10,000 vocab words in addition to a lot of grammar study, and through his efforts he mentioned he was able to communicate with Japanese people for hours on a wide variety of subjects.
So my initial goal from reading about that story (in addition to others) is 10,000 words.
Another blog threw out the figure that it mostly requires 20,000 words in a given language to become fluent. So my end-game goal is around 20,000 words based upon that site.
Then still there's another user on this forum (forgot who and which thread it was mentioned in) who had around 16,000+ words in his anki deck, and I think he lives and works in Japan and knows the language quite thoroughly. So from that, i'd say 15,000-20,000 words is more than reasonable. So for me personally, it'd be around that figure.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - TsugiAshi - 2014-02-11
sunehiro Wrote:I review cards like アルバム to improve my pronunciation of Katakana words, which is often "unnatural" and quite hard. (also considering the fact that I am not a native English speaker)I'm currently finishing up learning Katakana and when I see words like that I usually try to pronounce each syllable slowly and then go through it more quickly several times (while shortening the emphasis of the individual syllables) to see if it makes a familiar word out of the syllables.
My first impression of that word is "Alabama" but it comes out as "Arubamu" which is baffling to me. I've never heard of an Alabamu, so I'm not sure if it's trying to say the name of a state in the US. If it is, I'm not sure why the katakana just doesn't use the syllable "ma" at the end rather than "mu".
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - Fillanzea - 2014-02-11
"Album," TsugiAshi.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - Vempele - 2014-02-11
TsugiAshi Wrote:My first impression of that word is "Alabama" but it comes out as "Arubamu" which is baffling to me. I've never heard of an Alabamu, so I'm not sure if it's trying to say the name of a state in the US. If it is, I'm not sure why the katakana just doesn't use the syllable "ma" at the end rather than "mu"."U" often stands for "there was no vowel after the consonant but in Japanese every consonant is followed by a vowel so let's use u".
Except for the t-row where they use ト instead because ツ adds a consonant (and is used for words ending in -ts).
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - TsugiAshi - 2014-02-11
Thanks both of you. Knowing the word and saying it again from reading the katakana I can see how it comes out as album.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - ktcgx - 2014-02-12
sholum Wrote:Possibly you're not that familiar with the Japanese approach to romaji vowels. I and Y usually become い, no matter what the original sound.ktcgx Wrote:Personally, it always sounds more like 'veneer' than 'vinyl' to me, which is probably why I have trouble with it (I use 'veneer' more than 'vinyl' in English).qwertyytrewq Wrote:Speaking of katakana, I just got an old mature card wrong today: biniiru (plastic). I incorrectly guessed elastic.From "vinyl"?
Back to fail it goes.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - hyvel - 2014-02-12
This might sound overly simplistic, but my ideal goal would be to reach a point where vocabulary doesn't bother me anymore. That doesn't mean that I want to understand and know every single word, but rather getting to a point where not knowing a word here and there doesn't interfere too much with understanding the overall message. So I'll just continue studying and see if I'll eventually reach that point. If I'll get there within the next year then that's nice, but if it takes much longer, then so be it. Can't really do anything about it anyways.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - sholum - 2014-02-12
ktcgx Wrote:Oh, I know that, it's just that the ニー along with the ビ at the beginning make it sound like 'veneer'. Unless this is just a regional thing on my part, the 'vi' in 'vinyl' sounds like it would be transcribed as バイ, like in バイク, instead of ビ as in 'beer', at least to me. The 'yl' portion is more like 'ul' or just 'l', but I know that wouldn't transfer to Japanese at all.sholum Wrote:Possibly you're not that familiar with the Japanese approach to romaji vowels. I and Y usually become い, no matter what the original sound.ktcgx Wrote:From "vinyl"?Personally, it always sounds more like 'veneer' than 'vinyl' to me, which is probably why I have trouble with it (I use 'veneer' more than 'vinyl' in English).
Anyway, I know the word, it's just a bit weird when I see it, since the first thing it sounds like is 'veneer' and I have to remind myself that it's 'vinyl' or just 'plastic'.
Perhaps it's just a loan word that isn't from English and it's actually pronounced more like ビニール where it was sourced (like how 'virus' is ウイルス because it has nothing to do with the English version of 'virus').
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - ktcgx - 2014-02-12
sholum Wrote:It's entirely possible the word has been imported from German or something where it has a different pronunciation. My dictionary says there are other transcriptions of it too: ビニル バイニル. I think Japanese people don't have very much opportunity to hear English words (if indeed their "biniiru" even comes from English), but have much more opportunity to see words written down, so sometimes the "best fit" sound isn't used.ktcgx Wrote:Oh, I know that, it's just that the ニー along with the ビ at the beginning make it sound like 'veneer'. Unless this is just a regional thing on my part, the 'vi' in 'vinyl' sounds like it would be transcribed as バイ, like in バイク, instead of ビ as in 'beer', at least to me. The 'yl' portion is more like 'ul' or just 'l', but I know that wouldn't transfer to Japanese at all.sholum Wrote:Personally, it always sounds more like 'veneer' than 'vinyl' to me, which is probably why I have trouble with it (I use 'veneer' more than 'vinyl' in English).Possibly you're not that familiar with the Japanese approach to romaji vowels. I and Y usually become い, no matter what the original sound.
Anyway, I know the word, it's just a bit weird when I see it, since the first thing it sounds like is 'veneer' and I have to remind myself that it's 'vinyl' or just 'plastic'.
Perhaps it's just a loan word that isn't from English and it's actually pronounced more like ビニール where it was sourced (like how 'virus' is ウイルス because it has nothing to do with the English version of 'virus').
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - ryuudou - 2014-02-12
Fintan Wrote:I have often wondered how much vocab I would need. After doing some research I reckon 15k-20K would do it. After reading this thread I feel I have way underestimated and feel I should be aiming for 40-50K.Simply not true. People in this thread tend to vastly overestimate their vocabulary for the sake of ego (a nerdy forum like this appeals to the stat collector types) and also partially because Anki is misleading in that it makes you think you "know" more than you do.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - dizmox - 2014-02-13
Whether people are overestimating their vocabularies or not I don't think it's realistic that the linguistic repertoire of an educated Japanese (or English) speaker could be crammed into 15-20k Anki flashcards... |:
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - CaLeDee - 2014-02-13
ryuudou Wrote:So wait, are you saying that when Fintan reaches a stage where he 'knows' (whatever your definition of that is) 20k words, that he won't still regularly hear and see new words, the meanings of which he won't know? Sorry, but that's just nonsense.Fintan Wrote:I have often wondered how much vocab I would need. After doing some research I reckon 15k-20K would do it. After reading this thread I feel I have way underestimated and feel I should be aiming for 40-50K.Simply not true. People in this thread tend to vastly overestimate their vocabulary for the sake of ego (a nerdy forum like this appeals to the stat collector types) and also partially because Anki is misleading in that it makes you think you "know" more than you do.
The fact is that native Japanese speakers have a vocabulary much larger than 20k, and depending on his own goals, 'knowing' only 15-20k will leave him in a place of having to always look up the new words he's hearing/seeing. That's not to say he won't be able to translate. That depends on a number of other factors, but having a large vocabulary certainly helps and saves time having to always look up new words, something I guarantee he'll still have to do even when he 'knows' 20k.
Having said that, I don't think it's necessary to know 40-50k, and I certainly don't recommend Anki'ing that many because you'd spend so much time learning quite obscure words that you're unlikely to see very often, if at all.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - Fintan - 2014-02-14
Thank you very much for the useful and thoughtful replies. Gives me some hope.
Yesterday, I spoke to a retired English Japanese-English translator who specialized in Medicine. She earned very well over a 40 year career (and never wants to to translate another thing - ever!) She felt she probably had a vocab of 50,000 plus. She did some test which said she was near 80,000 but is not convinced you can measure these things.
Like some of you, she felt 10-20K could be enough to earn some kind of living (not a well paid one but would still encounter unknown words several times and hour, depending on the text. It was ten years before she translated without a dictionary but remember she was in specialized fields.
She also made the point that writing well in English is a key skill and is quite rare. I knew this and you guys also pointed this out.
She really hammered home understanding the nuance Japanese. It took her 5 years before she really felt she understood the nuance of Japanese. She also made the point that people think they know a word but don't know the numerous nuanced meanings of that word or phrase. She often read stilted translations entirely due to this. Often the translation was just plain wrong. However, she told me to embrace this because it is this difficulty that will keep translators employed. Translation software is not really up to the job and in her opinion never will be. It does speed things up for sure but can still take time whilst one does alot of editing. Ten years ago she was fearful the software would put her out of a job. Does not think that now. Toward the end of her career she was more worried about getting paid as many contracts were overseas. Agencies can be good but are a pain. Frankly, she feels the world is not as honest as when she started out.
Other advice. Whilst learning not to get too hung up about vocab (though it needs alot of work of course), but rather to make sure I studied grammar in detail and to note the nuance element. Her main advice was read, read, read, read and read some more. Oh. She also advised to think twice about being a translator at all - enjoyable but really quite hard work. For me, that is OK. I will never be as good as her, nor earn the same, nor want to work 10 hours a day. I also want to do a project for my own fun which needs good Japanese so I will study anyway. But it all helps me to be realistic about expectations.
Listening to her and you guys I am still going for it, but a couple of things are clear to me. I need to make a fast start, especially in the first year. If at the end of that year I decide I cannot be a translator I will still have useful Japanese to be employed in other directions. Also, I have no time left really. It is no good taking it easy and then going for it in a couple of years or so. At my age, I cannot bugger about.
I have been thinking about the anki debates. I am sure it is useful and I will use it but I am going to concentrate on reading, even it is tortuous to start with. Reading serves as a kind of SRS, but I am more likely to get that important handle on nuance, variety of meaning and structure.
Looks like I will translate the odd brochure or two, rather than War and Peace or Grey's Anatomy. Whatever, it will be enjoyable to study something I like.
Thanks again for your comments.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - qwertyytrewq - 2014-04-22
I can now say from experience, if you want to enjoy native media and not feel like you're studying, then 10,000 words is optimum.
Anything less than 10,000 and after 1 hour, you'll still be on the first page of your book, still on the opening scene of a movie, or still introducing yourself to your Japanese penpal.
2000 and 5000 are nice milestones to show physical proof of progress, but 10000 is when it doesnt feel like study anymore.
I'll probably change my opinions again at 20,000.
What is the "ideal" vocab goal? Give me your theory and practice. - poblequadrat - 2014-04-22
A good J-E pocket dictionary has 20000 entries in each language. These are words every native speaker knows, but it's no big deal if you have to look up something like "gridiron", "valet", "turbot", "sciatica" or "creamer".
According to this study, which seems credible enough, the average university-educated, native speaker of English knows 17500 words. This figure doesn't include derived words ("govern" vs. "misgovern"; "do" vs. "redo") nor compounds ("blue-eyed", "ground control"; but it does include "pipecleaner" or "helmetpod").
I think the most essential thing is learning the nuances of common words. Quantifying the vocabulary one knows seems funny to me, but I guess it makes sense when talking about Anki.