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+--- Thread: usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? (/thread-11509.html)
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - anki_evryday - 2014-01-26
I was practicing my listening by watching Polar Bear Cafe, and there are lines in there that I understand grammatically but not why けど or し was used there.
one example is, the polar bear is looking for a new employee, after interviewing them, none of them are satisfactory so he sends them home. Right after, a girl carrying a sloth walks into the cafe. The girl only came to the cafe because the sloth asked her to carry him there. When the polar bear asks her name she says: ササコですけど
is this けど used like an "although" or is she explaining that ササコ is her name?
(then he hires her, if that piece of information makes this easier to parse)
another example is the panda calls the polar bear to ask him to deliver food to his house.
the polar bear says that they don't deliver and also they are busy (今、忙しいし）
is this し used because he is trying to say "we are busy, and etc."?
I got all of my grammar lessons from tae kim, in his grammar guide he explains し as an explanatory particle used to connect multiple reasons together.
if this is the case, why didn't the polar bear just say 今、忙しいの?
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - comeauch - 2014-01-26
ササコですけど probably means little more than "I'm Sasako", it's sort of a way to be indirect (where ササコです would be straightforward). In this case, it just softens the sentence. It could also be because she has something to ask from him, or is shy, doesn't want to disturb, etc depending on the context.
今、忙しいの is more explanatory and would mean - I think - something like "You know, I'm busy right now." or "The thing is, I'm busy right now". し in this case is again a softener... it still means "I'm busy right now", but it's not a strong statement. Or it could be a way of complaining "[I don't want to go,] I'm busy and stuff..."
I'm not yet an expert though, hopefully someone has a clearer answer ;P
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - anki_evryday - 2014-01-27
comeauch Wrote:ササコですけど probably means little more than "I'm Sasako", it's sort of a way to be indirect (where ササコです would be straightforward). In this case, it just softens the sentence. It could also be because she has something to ask from him, or is shy, doesn't want to disturb, etc depending on the context.ohhh ok, I was under the impression that けど and し are only used when you are connecting two sentences together. guess that clears it up, thanks!
今、忙しいの is more explanatory and would mean - I think - something like "You know, I'm busy right now." or "The thing is, I'm busy right now". し in this case is again a softener... it still means "I'm busy right now", but it's not a strong statement. Or it could be a way of complaining "[I don't want to go,] I'm busy and stuff..."
I'm not yet an expert though, hopefully someone has a clearer answer ;P
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - Zgarbas - 2014-01-27
し is used when making a non-finite list, so by adding し you're implying that you're busy, among other things, and softening up the answer (think of it as answering "I'm kind of busy" instead of "I'm busy!"). The softening up aspect was already mentioned, but usually when you see し at the end of the sentence it basically acts as an "etc.", or something like:
how's it going? Oh, you know, work, school, lots of things going on at the moment
Busy tonight? Yeah, I have to wash my hair, work on some things...
What's been going on lately? Broke my arm, wrestled a bear, the usual.
as for the けど。。。one day, you'll find yourself randomly ending sentences with "but...", and when you get weird looks, you'll remember this question and laugh ^^.
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - yudantaiteki - 2014-01-27
し also is typically providing reasons leading up to some (often unspoken) conclusion.
Increasingly you see し just used as a light emphasis particle, I think -- maybe with some sort of "reason" meaning in there but not a very strong one.
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - anki_evryday - 2014-01-28
Zgarbas Wrote:as for the けど。。。one day, you'll find yourself randomly ending sentences with "but...", and when you get weird looks, you'll remember this question and laugh ^^.えぇ…そうですか？ こんなに上手の日本語は出来るが欲しいです！本物の日本人みたいな感じですね…
and of course my grammar is probably terrible ^_^;;
well I just started two weeks ago so... I will keep trying my best!
thanks to all your answers, I thought about it a little bit, and I came to the conclusion that maybe ササコ has put けど at the end of her self-intro because while it's true she brought the sloth to the cafe, it's not like she was there for any other express reason. Maybe when the polar bear asked her name out of the blue, she was unsure why he decided to like that...? so she wanted to say something like "I'm sasako, but... (why are you asking?)" maybe?
but your explanations of し as a softener, i.e. to provide various reasons why you can't blah blah blah... whatever... that was very useful
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - Xanpakuto - 2014-01-28
anki_evryday Wrote:You started only two weeks ago, holy cow. I'm not the best at picking out errors but, I think 上手 should be followed by な instead of の there. のが should follow 出来る, the の normalizes the verb.Zgarbas Wrote:as for the けど。。。one day, you'll find yourself randomly ending sentences with "but...", and when you get weird looks, you'll remember this question and laugh ^^.えぇ…そうですか？ こんなに上手の日本語は出来るが欲しいです！本物の日本人みたいな感じですね…
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - anki_evryday - 2014-01-29
Xanpakuto Wrote:haha yeah, that's how you can tell I started two weeks ago ^_^;;anki_evryday Wrote:You started only two weeks ago, holy cow. I'm not the best at picking out errors but, I think 上手 should be followed by な instead of の there. のが should follow 出来る, the の normalizes the verb.Zgarbas Wrote:as for the けど。。。one day, you'll find yourself randomly ending sentences with "but...", and when you get weird looks, you'll remember this question and laugh ^^.えぇ…そうですか？ こんなに上手の日本語は出来るが欲しいです！本物の日本人みたいな感じですね…
and you are right, I'm just now starting to learn all the uses of の (that is not related to posessives)
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - dtcamero - 2014-02-16
as kind of a follow up I had two questions I'd love cleared up by more learned forum members...
could the above point about softening also apply to the sentence-ender て-form words?
ex. そうじゃなくて vs. そうじゃない
does it also imply some kind of clausal continuation like し does above? I feel like people seem to use it as if it doesn't.
and then similar but different... the kansai-ben sentence-ender で,
as in 行くでー
which I feel just means 行くよ or 行きます. I guess I'm interested in knowing when it would and wouldn't be used... and if there were any nuance to it's meaning.
thanks!
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - Arupan - 2014-02-16
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usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - viharati - 2014-02-16
dtcamero Wrote:as in 行くでーYes, that で is basically particle ぜ pronounced a little differently.
which I feel just means 行くよ or 行きます.
Quote:I guess I'm interested in knowing when it would and wouldn't be used... and if there were any nuance to it's meaning.Do you mean よ?
よ after terminal forms of verbs
It basically indicates the speaker's recognition for the information has been formed under a context that the listener couldn't access to.
At 1:46 of the footage, she reply "comming" or 「行く」(in Japanese version) without よ because she decided it right during the conversasion. If she had decided her shcedule, she would have said 行くよ (rising tone).
More practically speaking, you use it (1) when you imply the listener should take some proper action or set his/her mind in a certain way, or (2) when you say something contradictional to what the listerner believes or expects.
(3) you can add it after のだ forms, (probablly) without any particular reasons.
(4) you can skip it after polite forms of verbs, in most cases. In general, the more formal the situation is, the less frequent it's used.
(5) when you express it somewhat ironically or when you complain. (falling tone)
... and anything?
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - drdunlap - 2014-02-16
dtcamero Wrote:and then similar but different... the kansai-ben sentence-ender で,Kansai yay hurray!
as in 行くでー
which I feel just means 行くよ or 行きます. I guess I'm interested in knowing when it would and wouldn't be used... and if there were any nuance to it's meaning.
This is a bit of a rambly sidetrack, but...
In Kansai, よ、わ and で are all used like the standard Japanese よ to add emphasis but they do have different uses and it sounds weird to use them incorrectly.
よ can be used just like you would outside of Kansai.
で is somewhat like よ or ぜ from standard Japanese for expressing emphasis but is often used by both men and women. It can also be used to confirm (often rhetorically) such as 窓開けるで (標準語= 窓を開けるよ、窓を開けるね) with the nuance of 「窓を開けるけど、いい？」. 行くで can also be part of this nuance. で also can't really be used in situations like 「行こうぜ」→「行こうで」 when you're inviting someone or suggesting something.
The standard phrase そうだよ is most often said as そうやで or せやで in Osaka.
わ is used exclusively to add emphasis. It would be weird to say something like 行こうわ for inviting or suggesting or to use it in place of で in the previous 窓開けるで for rhetorical confirmation. (As an side- for inviting or suggesting, using や as an ending particle (like 行こうや) is often done in Osaka.)
There are a ton of subtle little.. annoyances.
For example, you would never really say で when saying you want something/want to do something. 「〜欲しいで」、「〜したいで」sounds awkward but 「〜欲しいわ」、「〜したいわ」sounds normal. Also, adding な(ね) after で sounds odd but after わ sounds fine.
Please excuse my failure to fully explain. :| Sentence-ending particles in Kansai-ben are such a subtle thing and take a lot of experience to use correctly.
<rambly derail off>
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - yudantaiteki - 2014-02-16
Incidentally that わ is used pretty often in Tokyo also; I think it started as Kansai-ben but spread from there.
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - loonytik - 2014-02-16
Men in Tokyo use it aswell?
In standard Japanese it is used by women sometimes as a sentence-end particle and sounds really feminine if a man uses that "wa".
while in kansai-ben it fine for both genders to use it. the intonation is also a bit different from the standard japanese "wa" I believe.
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - yudantaiteki - 2014-02-16
loonytik Wrote:Men in Tokyo use it aswell?With falling intonation, yes.
The feminine わ (which even women under 50 don't really use anymore) has a different intonation.
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - dtcamero - 2014-02-16
drdunlap Wrote:snipsuper helpful, thanks a lot!
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - vileru - 2014-02-16
Arupan Wrote:Anyway, you should say something like this:Excellent correction. However, I would move the 日本語を in 私も（日本語を）そんな風に話せる to look like 私もそんな風に（日本語を）話せる since, for clarity and simplicity, I prefer to keep a modifying clause as close as possible to the clause that it modifies.
→ 本当ですか。私も（日本語を）そんな風に話せるようになりたいですね。まるでネーティブスピーカーのような感じです。
Also, in case anyone is wondering, the Japanese term (和語) for the katakana (外来語) ネーティブスピーカー is 母国語者. As it often seems to be the case, the Japanese term has a more technical, academic feel.
usage of けど and し when the second clause is unspoken? - Arupan - 2014-02-16
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