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I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Printable Version

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I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - learningkanji - 2014-01-20

For example: lower, turn down = 下[さ]げる, downhill, going down = 下[くだ]り, bring down, take down, pull down = 下[お]ろす, go down, come down = 下[お]りる, come down, hang down, fall = 下[さ]がる etc.

I keep clicking <1 minute until they're the last cards to do and eventually I click <10 minutes and then 1 day. I do not know the difference between these words and they mean nothing to me. How did you overcome situations like this?

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - ktcgx - 2014-01-20

Hmmmm some I can't give you a great example for, but for "kudari", it's mainly used for trainlines. Trains heading towards Tokyo are said to be "nobori" and trains heading away from Tokyo are said to be "kudari".
Oriru and Orosu are transitive/intransitive pairs. Transitive means there is an agent who causes the action (usually). Intransitive means the resultative state was brought about, but not through the actions of an agent. I'm sure someone has a better explanation than me, but basically I can give an example for "modoru/modosu". Modoru is like "everyone please return your papers to me" whereas "modosu" is like "please can I have the papers returned to me".
Sageru/Sagaru: I presume that sageru is for example water running down a hill, whereas "sagaru" is you (or someone else) making something go down, eg giving something to an underling/ teacher to student etc would be sagaru.

I hope that helps a little bit!

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Aikynaro - 2014-01-20

If it's too big a deal, ignore/suspend them. They're common words. You will see them in context a million billion times. If you have the general idea of 'something to do with down', that's good enough for now, I reckon.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Vempele - 2014-01-20

下げる vs. 下がる: transitive vs. intransitive. The object of 下げる is the subject of 下がる.

下る vs. 下りる: With 下る you're just going down (a slope, a river, etc.), with 下りる there's some specific point you're going down to (down the stairs, to the bottom of a mountain, etc.).

下ろす vs. 下げる: with 下ろす you're taking something down (from a bookshelf), with 下げる you're hanging it (from your shoulder).

下ろす vs. 下りる: again, transitive vs. intransitive, but unlike with 下げる/下がる, you usually can't convert one to the other with a change of particles.

In addition to "be hung", 下がる can also mean a decrease in the level of something (price, temperature, noise, etc.); the 下げる you see in Core is a transitive example of the same.

All of the verbs also have uses that aren't covered by the above. When in doubt, look at what the verb is doing in the specific sentence.

Quote:I keep clicking <1 minute until they're the last cards to do and eventually I click <10 minutes and then 1 day.
Tools->Preferences->Learn ahead limit = 1 minute. You could also add a 60-minute step in the deck's options. Going straight from what is effectively <1 minute to a whole day is horrible, 10 minutes is borderline IMO.

Quote:I do not know the difference between these words and they mean nothing to me.
There's no point SRSing something you don't understand (unless you're explicitly ignoring the meaning and just going kanji->kana). Suspend any such cards until you find a way to understand them.

Also, forget the English definitions. They're only meant to help you, they're not what you're supposed to be remembering.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - KanjiMood - 2014-01-20

I would say a lot of people have this problem, it annoyed me at the beginning too, eventually I just absorbed the fact they mean either up or down and just passed them as good or hard 80% of the time.

After a month or two or three, you get more familiar with the words and the concepts behind them. I've had cards with parts of sentences I didn't fully understand for almost 6 months (I kept them in because I understand most of it). I don't agree you shouldn't add stuff you don't understand, as long as you understand MOST of it (more applicable to sentences).

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - kameden - 2014-01-20

For situations like this, it is always best to check a Japanese dictionary. You're probably not at a level where you can read them yet, but I guess for future reference if you're having problems with words (specifically verbs), checking the Japanese dictionary will clear up any confusion.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - howtwosavealif3 - 2014-01-20

Aikynaro Wrote:If it's too big a deal, ignore/suspend them. They're common words. You will see them in context a million billion times. If you have the general idea of 'something to do with down', that's good enough for now, I reckon.
so true. suspend them, delete them, just move on and doing somethinge else or other cards.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - learningkanji - 2014-01-20

Thanks for the replies. I know they all have something to do with going down/lowering etc but I'm given the English meaning and have to say the word correctly. So if I get the card "lower, turn down", I start thinking is it [お]ろす? Is it [さ]げる? Is it [お]りる etc.

Also for adding an option for 60 minutes until review, my reviews don't last long enough for an hour to be worth adding.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Woodgar - 2014-01-20

Maybe it depends on what your general goal is, but I agree with most of the other posters in that it's best to just let it go rather than spend ages fretting over it.

For me, my primary aim is to read, so as long as I know they have something to do with going down or taking down then I'm happy and will pick up a better understanding of them with context.

I'm working through core2k/6k at the moment, but I'm mainly using Anki to just get the words into my head so that I can recognise them in native texts, and as long as I know what the word means and have a rough idea of how to pronounce it then I pass the card with either a hard or normal depending on how I feel on the day.

Remember that Anki is just a tool, it's not the goal.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - learningkanji - 2014-01-20

How do you feel when you read but can't pronounce a word? Do you just move on, do you look up the pronunciation and move on, do you do something else?

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - KanjiMood - 2014-01-20

Umm, well I had problems with pronouncing specific sentences rather than words, if that makes sense. Moving on would be the best course of action IMO, I think quantity over quality works well for languages, you need a lot of background knowledge first.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - yudantaiteki - 2014-01-20

kameden Wrote:For situations like this, it is always best to check a Japanese dictionary. You're probably not at a level where you can read them yet, but I guess for future reference if you're having problems with words (specifically verbs), checking the Japanese dictionary will clear up any confusion.
Why do you feel the Japanese dictionaries are better? The J-E on my electronic dictionary has better examples and clearer definitions than the J-J.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Inny Jan - 2014-01-20

learningkanji Wrote:I know they all have something to do with going down/lowering etc but I'm given the English meaning and have to say the word correctly. So if I get the card "lower, turn down", I start thinking is it [お]ろす? Is it [さ]げる? Is it [お]りる etc.
When and in what circumstances you use those words is part of your active knowledge. However, before you get into the fully "active" stage, you will have to spend some time in the "passive" zone. Passive meaning that you read and listen. And while you "read and listen", the context will help you determine what is the more specific meaning of those 下(げる・ろす・りる). Once you see/hear those used many times in different contexts, you will know the meaning (and more importantly, when to use these words) without resorting to English definitions.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Aikynaro - 2014-01-20

learningkanji Wrote:Thanks for the replies. I know they all have something to do with going down/lowering etc but I'm given the English meaning and have to say the word correctly.
Mmm, but the English meaning doesn't matter. I'd be wary of any card format/way of approaching cards that would require you to recall an English translation of a word before passing it rather than simply understanding what something means. I don't know how Core is set out, but isn't there a sentence you can put on the front?

Quote:How do you feel when you read but can't pronounce a word? Do you just move on, do you look up the pronunciation and move on, do you do something else?
While reading a book or something? Move on, of course. Looking up pronunciation from kanji is painful and I'll just forget it anyway and there's thousands of other words that need my attention so why waste time on that particular one? I firmly believe that reading is meant to be enjoyable and looking stuff up while reading isn't.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - learningkanji - 2014-01-20

Aikynaro Wrote:
learningkanji Wrote:Thanks for the replies. I know they all have something to do with going down/lowering etc but I'm given the English meaning and have to say the word correctly.
Mmm, but the English meaning doesn't matter. I'd be wary of any card format/way of approaching cards that would require you to recall an English translation of a word before passing it rather than simply understanding what something means. I don't know how Core is set out, but isn't there a sentence you can put on the front?
The Japanese sentence is on the front minus the word in question. I have to know how to say that word.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Aikynaro - 2014-01-20

Ah, okay.
Another thing you can do is suspend all of the similar cards except one of them. When you understand/know that one pretty well and it's matured, unsuspend another one. That way you won't mix them up.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - andikaze - 2014-01-20

when i come across a word i'm not sure how to use or how it's different from one i normally use, i look it up on jiten.net, as they have tons of example sentences.

i do this, too, when i'm looking for a japanese term to express something and want to make sure i pick the correct one, because english and japanese words have various meanings and connotations and just looking at a definition doesn't clear that up. however, when you look at example sentences it's easy to find out when to use which.

then there are real bummers like 混じる vs 混ざる where i usually ask native speakers.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - kameden - 2014-01-22

yudantaiteki Wrote:
kameden Wrote:For situations like this, it is always best to check a Japanese dictionary. You're probably not at a level where you can read them yet, but I guess for future reference if you're having problems with words (specifically verbs), checking the Japanese dictionary will clear up any confusion.
Why do you feel the Japanese dictionaries are better? The J-E on my electronic dictionary has better examples and clearer definitions than the J-J.
Well for online J-E dictionaries they usually just give a list of equivalent words instead of actual definition and usages. I was referring to those as most people won't have an electronic dictionary.

I'm doing core2k/6k and having trouble with very similar words. - Vempele - 2014-01-22

kameden Wrote:Well for online J-E dictionaries they usually just give a list of equivalent words instead of actual definition and usages. I was referring to those as most people won't have an electronic dictionary.
The only dictionary like that is Edict (which, granted, seems to power every English-language dictionary website out there), and even then you have example sentences from the Tatoeba project.

http://kod.kenkyusha.co.jp/demo/form.jsp - This is the awesome one, but only for words starting with あ (you even have to dekanjify them). If you get results from multiple dictionaries, be sure to select entries with [和大] in front.
http://ejje.weblio.jp/ - a bunch of dictionaries, including the midsized edition of the above (研究社 和英中辞典)
http://dic.yahoo.co.jp/?&_rd=1 - Don't know what dictionary this is.
http://www.alc.co.jp/ - Eijiro. Enormous, but the quality...varies.
http://tangorin.com/ - Edict with example sentences, conjugation tables and kanji search.