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Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - legendmaxx - 2014-01-11
Deciding whether or not to use English to help learn Japanese has been something that has been bothering me on and off for the last year and a half. Here's why: I have felt like I am capable of learning vocabulary without the help of English fairly sufficiently, but rarely feel like I can actually put it into practice. I feel like a have a sort of vague understanding of the definition, rather than the real world context I would be able to apply if given an English definition. It would seem then, that it would make the most sense for me to have given up on being solely J-J a long time ago, but there has always been one article posted on the Japaneselevelup site that made me reconsider: http://japaneselevelup.com/saying-farewell-to-english-why-part-with-such-a-good-friend/
Even though this whole article is filled with made up statistics and other crap, the thought of never being able to reach my full potential in learning Japanese because of not make the monolingual transition is a scary thought, as well as the last thing I want to have to worry about while learning. I know I can just try to ignore what he wrote, but I have had the hardest time trying to shake the feeling that I will mess myself up if I don't stay as monolingual as possible.
Recently however, I have finally decided that I don't want to have only vague understandings of the words I have been learning, and have decided to have both English and Japanese definitions on my Anki cards. I really do believe that I can actually use what I am learn far more quickly and accurately if I have an English definition that I can relate it to. This doesn't mean that I don't read the Japanese definitions, since those are still the basis of my understanding, but rather the English just adds even more, rather than less, to my overall understanding.
I know this was kind of long, but I really want to know what you all think about what is written in that article and whether anyone else has experienced a similar phenomenon of not really feeling like that understand a word well enough to use it unless there is a clear English definition that you can relate it to. Looking for to what you have to say!
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Hirakana - 2014-01-11
Please don't listen to that guy too much. He's full of terrible advice.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - ktcgx - 2014-01-11
I haven't read the link, but wanted to make some general points that I feel need to be made on the subject of monolingual language learning.
It seems to me that a lot of people in favour of it seem to be thinking along the lines of "well, that's how native speakers attained their fluency, so I should too". I think that's a mistake. Babies' brains are very different to teenagers/adults (most people motivated to try to learn another language). I think that's the first problem. But the thing I think is most important is that people with a second language have a great advantage in that they have available to them a fully formed language with which to make sense of things: it's much, much quicker to pick up vocab if you have a direct or somewhat close translation of the word you're learning. It's easier to pick up grammar if you can approach it in a logical way, using what you know about the grammar of your own language as you go.
Don't get confused by people who say that immersion works because people who go to Japan will pick up Japanese faster and more fluently than those who don't have such an immersive environment at their disposal. They might pick up the language quicker because they are actually using it, everyday, for real communication, not because they are using solely Japanese to learn Japanese (which I highly doubt any of them are).
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Aikynaro - 2014-01-11
Article sounds dodgy to me, with lots of made-up stuff.
I'm sympathetic to the monolingual dictionary argument because of my experience teaching Japanese people English and the frequency of mistranslations of complex words that their dictionaries spit out at me, but, well, by and large a translation is fine if you have sufficient context, I think. If you're advanced and Japanese dictionary definitions make effortless sense to you then of course that's different, but otherwise...
Also, just because you're putting a translation on a card doesn't mean you're learning to just translate. Unless your criteria for a pass is that you recall the English definition, you can just as easily understand what the word is in context (assuming you have a sentence or something on the front of your card). I don't sit around translating the sentences or words on my cards - I just read them and pass it if I understand them, and if I forget I'll read the word translations on the back.
I think once you've worked out the study method that works for you, it's best to just ignore the advice of everyone else unless there's some really cool idea that doesn't disrupt what's already working, or if what you have breaks somehow. Everyone has a different idea of the best way to learn Japanese. They probably all work just fine, too.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Vempele - 2014-01-11
legendmaxx Wrote:I feel like a have a sort of vague understanding of the definition, rather than the real world context I would be able to apply if given an English definition.Dictionary definitions can't tell you how to use a word. Example sentences (and, especially, sentences you see in the wild) can.
SRS in whichever way you find the most memorable (myself, I just memorize readings, I barely even look at the definition). Read a lot.
The "translating in your head = bad" part of the article is truth. Except for the implication that J-J is the only way not to do that. You can compare your understanding of a sentence in one language to a sentence in another language without translating.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - howtwosavealif3 - 2014-01-11
don't read into his blog so much. he's not even fluent in japanese anyway...
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - drdunlap - 2014-01-11
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:don't read into his blog so much. he's not even fluent in japanese anyway...He's not? Well he's not *perfect* and I've never heard him speak but he's not *not* fluent...
But anyway I still don't understand the need for it to be one or the other. Why can't it be both?
English is faster, having the Japanese definition too gives the chance to check it out when the card comes up- if you're curious. I make all sorts of little discoveries this way. :|
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Betelgeuzah - 2014-01-11
drdunlap Wrote:But anyway I still don't understand the need for it to be one or the other. Why can't it be both?It's a wasted effort setting cards up this way?
If the point is to understand what a word means, then the definition that does the job most efficiently is the best one. Since it takes a lot of time to internalize the way Japanese explains meanings as opposed to English, for most students it should be a no-brainer to use the English definition.
If the point is to use the Japanese definition to help you become familiar with written Japanese, I would say that learning Japanese definitions of words is a boring not to mention an inefficient way to accomplish that goal. You're better off reading real texts instead of hundreds of abstract meanings after another. Not to mention you'll be struggling with understanding the meaning of the word for quite some time too.
I personally wouldn't combine the two activities (reading Japanese and learning vocab) unless I was already fluent in which case you should use the material that gives the best explanations.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - drdunlap - 2014-01-11
Betelgeuzah Wrote:I personally wouldn't combine the two activities (reading Japanese and learning vocab) unless I was already fluent in which case you should use the material that gives the best explanations.Not for reading- for the added benefit of the Japanese definition. Yeah it takes time but not *that* much time. Especially if you establish a rhythm and discover the magic of copy and paste. For people who are dead set doing it one way or the other- that's one thing.. but if you're caught up on what to do why not do both?
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - howtwosavealif3 - 2014-01-11
IT'S OKAY to experiment with the format of your anki cards. worst case scenario is you'll go back to your old format (don't waste time converting your old cards OBVIOUSLY... ) when you add new cards. it's not a big deal. just do whatever you want and see what's better yourself. sometimes certain methods work better better for certain people or people at a certain level.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Flamerokz - 2014-01-11
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:IT'S OKAY to experiment with the format of your anki cards. worst case scenario is you'll go back to your old format (don't waste time converting your old cards OBVIOUSLY... ) when you add new cards. it's not a big deal. just do whatever you want and see what's better yourself. sometimes certain methods work better better for certain people or people at a certain level.I hate to piggyback without adding a whole lot but I wanted to agree and emphasize this in particular. People should be less scared to experiment; experiment! Maybe you'll fail but that's okay (A lot of mine have failed hahaha) but in most cases you should have gotten something out of the experience, even if for example it's not the most efficient way to memorize X, or what have you.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - nadiatims - 2014-01-11
Since the dawn of language learning people have been using bilingual dictionaries. They exist for a reason. Using Japanese definitions is just some weird language learner Puritan hang up.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - legendmaxx - 2014-01-11
Thank you all for replying. Just to clarify, I always learn words in the contexts of texts that I input into Anki rather than just learning stand alone words, so I do have the context of the text to help.
Also, I think I just wanted someone to affirm that what was in the article was largely crap (even if I already knew it myself), since it seems like almost everyone who comments on his site seems to blindly follow him, which just bothers me, so I'm glad to hear some other opinions.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - quark - 2014-01-11
I tried using J-J definitions and didn't like it. Reading the definitions in Japanese was time consuming and only left me with a vague understanding of the word. Even worse, if a definition contained a word that wasn't understood, that meant having to look up the definitions of those words, so my reading time ended up becoming dictionary reading time. Fun.
Whereas if using J-E definitions, you look up the word go "Oh, okay" or "Hey, I guessed that right!" and then move on.
Don't put too much stock into his claim that J-E will keep you translating into English in your head forever. With more experience reading and listening, your need to internally translate will decrease. My Japanese is pretty bad, but I find myself a lot of times zoning out and realizing that I haven't been translating, but still following what's happening.
With enough experience, you'll get to the point where you sometimes don't even need a dictionary, English or Japanese. You'll just be able to understand based on context.
But go ahead and keep using J-J and J-E on your cards. You can always edit them so that the English definition only shows up when highlighted so that way you can try and use the Japanese first but still have the English as a back up. But personally, I don't think J-E is as horrible as JALUP makes it sound.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - gaiaslastlaugh - 2014-01-11
I did this for a while early on. It ended up being a wild synonym chase; I spent more time looking up words I had little reason to know at the moment instead of reading and listening to Japanese.
I do have Skritter set up to give me native definitions of words when they're available. Some are interesting, and sometimes I'll stop to look up a word or character I don't know. Their usefulness varies. I don't think I gain a damn thing by knowing that ある is defined as 事物が存在する。Mostly, it's just extra exposure to Japanese, which is never a bad thing.
I still do some translating in my head, but I feel that's decreasing as my reading and listening speeds increase. Listening in particular seems like good anti-translation practice; there's only so much translating you can do in your head while listening to Japanese at native speed before you fall behind and become totally lost. Put down the 辞書 and pick up a podcast.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - tokyostyle - 2014-01-12
drdunlap Wrote:I prefer to trust the judgement of the Japanese producers who keep putting him on TV precisely because of his speaking ability.howtwosavealif3 Wrote:don't read into his blog so much. he's not even fluent in japanese anyway...He's not? Well he's not *perfect* and I've never heard him speak but he's not *not* fluent...
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Tzadeck - 2014-01-12
Especially early on, but even when you're quite good at Japanese, you really only need to use a J-J definition when your look up the J-E definition and you feel like it's not giving you the full story. Beyond that, being exposed to it in reality a few times will finally give you a good idea of the word's meaning and how it is used.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - drdunlap - 2014-01-12
tokyostyle Wrote:Yeah I don't know much about him- aside from what seems like a drive to rival AJATT- but from his *written* Japanese I can't see how you could label him as "not fluent." :|drdunlap Wrote:I prefer to trust the judgement of the Japanese producers who keep putting him on TV precisely because of his speaking ability.howtwosavealif3 Wrote:don't read into his blog so much. he's not even fluent in japanese anyway...He's not? Well he's not *perfect* and I've never heard him speak but he's not *not* fluent...
Still, unless you actively translate forever I don't think it matters. Do what you want. :|
I like having both- I usually just look at the English, but find myself looking at Japanese from time to time out of curiosity. I also regularly look in the dictionary and thesaurus because.. I dunno. Words. (・ω・)b
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - codex - 2014-01-12
I think when you first start studying Japanese your entire context (your learning environment) really can't help but be the English language (assuming that's your L1) and Western cultural. As you learn Japanese vocabulary, grammar, and writing, and are exposed to Japanese culture, your context gradually expands to include Japanese language and culture. As you acquire more knowledge and especially more *practice*, your Japanese learning will naturally shift to a more Japanese context. But I think trying to force yourself into a context you haven't yet acquired will end up being time consuming and discouraging.
Frex, when I see or hear 猫, I no longer think "cat"' - it only means 猫 to me. It's become part of my Japanese context. But until recently, if I saw or heard 手袋 (glove, mitten) I would either have had to find an English translation or, if possible, guess the meaning from context. However, I was in Japan in December (very cold!) and I left my gloves in a taxi, so now 手袋 is very much a part of my Japanese context and forever seared in my brain. Plus, I learned a useful new vocabulary word 袋 (I already knew 手) which is used in many compound words.
Because I already knew some Japanese vocabulary when I started RTK, I do use Japanese keywords IF I already know them. At one point I did try doing all Japanese keywords, but adding another level of complexity to RTK turned out to be a very bad idea, at least for me.
I think it can be helpful to skim language learning blogs for ideas that resonate with you, but you really need to be skeptical about the bloggers' exaggerated claims and alleged statistics.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - ryuudou - 2014-01-12
tokyostyle Wrote:More or less this. You can sense a lot of illogical jealously in these posts considering I don't believe anyone in this thread has superior Japanese to adshap.drdunlap Wrote:I prefer to trust the judgement of the Japanese producers who keep putting him on TV precisely because of his speaking ability.howtwosavealif3 Wrote:don't read into his blog so much. he's not even fluent in japanese anyway...He's not? Well he's not *perfect* and I've never heard him speak but he's not *not* fluent...
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - drdunlap - 2014-01-12
ryuudou Wrote:Well don't run to the *other* extreme. 8)tokyostyle Wrote:More or less this. You can sense a lot of illogical jealously in these posts considering I don't believe anyone in this thread has superior Japanese to adshap.drdunlap Wrote:He's not? Well he's not *perfect* and I've never heard him speak but he's not *not* fluent...I prefer to trust the judgement of the Japanese producers who keep putting him on TV precisely because of his speaking ability.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Tzadeck - 2014-01-12
legendmaxx Wrote:http://japaneselevelup.com/saying-farewell-to-english-why-part-with-such-a-good-friend/I've finally just read through this and I really found it obnoxious. For example, not only does he say that a lot of advanced learners still complain that they need to translate in their head (which isn't fuucking true, I've never heard an advanced learner say that in my life), but he explains that the reason is that they use J-E dictionaries. That's ridiculous.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Vempele - 2014-01-12
Besides, even if he were right, the ability to translate between two completely different languages in 0.25-0.50 seconds sounds awesome.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - nadiatims - 2014-01-12
Beginners need to be careful following the advice of random bloggers. Almost any intermediate or advanced learner's ability will seem impressive to a beginner and lend credibility to their arguments.
Why I've stopped doing soely J-J definitions - Jackdaw - 2014-01-12
I agree, Nadiatims. Everyone has an idea on the best way for others to learn, but which way is the best for each learner is very individual. It's best to just think for yourself and experiment with many different approaches until you find what works best for you.