RTK for intermediate/advanced learners

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - Printable Version

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RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - afterglowefx - 2014-01-07

Has anybody picked up RTK later in the game? If so, did you find it useful? Do you feel the time investment has paid off? Do you add Japanese keywords to accompany Heisig's, or even focus on the English at all for that matter?

I'm basically conversational in Japanese with about 4000 words (I get a lot more speaking practice than most, I suppose, considering I live/work in Japan and even teach in Japanese) and after finishing Core2k (90% mature, 99% correct rate on mature cards) I've been heavily focusing on wrapping up RTK.

I'm on frame 1600 or so and I'm finding it incredibly useful. While previously words like 線 and 緑 or 締める and 諦める would cause me a lot of difficulty, it's rarely a problem anymore. Even the kanji I've never seen before are much easier to remember due to being able to recognize elements and eliminate the ~1600 or so other kanji that I for-sure know they are not.

However, I'm finding that I pay almost no attention to the English keywords. I've modified the anki deck to include a Japanese field where I plug in all the vocab (in kana) I know which use the kanji. Frequently the keyword won't do much for me, but the Japanese will conjure up a hazy recollection of the general shape of the kanji, afterward Heisig's method takes over and carries me through to writing it. For those of you not using Japanese keywords to accompany the English, I'd recommend it.

I intend to keep up on reviews after finishing the book (hopefully this month), but I also want to eventually move the English keywords onto the back of the card and go from Japanese only.

What are your experiences with Heisig at an intermediate/advanced level?

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - ktcgx - 2014-01-07

I went through RTK1 after getting a BA in Japanese. I only just scraped through due to my poor kanji skills. Because of that, I found RTK to be a god-send, however, others might disagree (not looking at anyone in particuler :p )

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - Bokusenou - 2014-01-07

I completed RTK when I was low intermediate in everything but reading pretty much, after I had tried just about every other kanji learning book out there at the time. I used English keywords, though I guess Japanese keywords might have been helpful. Afterwards I went through core2k quickly, since I knew almost all the words, as well as knowing some in core6k. I think a lot of people probably start RTK after getting frustrated with the usual traditional methods.

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - tokyostyle - 2014-01-08

I went through RTK after knowing a bit of beginner Japanese. I used mostly English keywords, but switched to Japanese ones for kanji that I was already familiar with. It definitely helps in ways that are hard to quantify and I have always felt it was worth the time and effort.

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - mc962 - 2014-01-09

tokyostyle Wrote:I went through RTK after knowing a bit of beginner Japanese. I used mostly English keywords, but switched to Japanese ones for kanji that I was already familiar with. It definitely helps in ways that are hard to quantify and I have always felt it was worth the time and effort.

Same thing for me (although I'm still going through RTK). There are some kanji that don't like to stick very well like 忘 and 忙 that I have trouble making stick properly with English, but with words like わすれる and いそがしい (the one's I use), I rarely forget them. It also helps me distinguish the different orientations of the primitives

I also sometimes use it when I'm too lazy to make a story, although this is usually only for cases where I am familiar with the kanji from previous studies

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - tokyostyle - 2014-01-09

mc962 Wrote:There are some kanji that don't like to stick very well like 忘

This one is kind of forgettable. :lol:

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - sholum - 2014-01-09

tokyostyle Wrote:
mc962 Wrote:There are some kanji that don't like to stick very well like 忘
This one is kind of forgettable. :lol:

I actually started off remembering 難 because it was 'difficult' to see the left side with just a glance.

I actually started RTK pretty early in my studies, since I was, and still am, obsessed over reading. I think it was only a couple of months after I studied the kana that I found out about RTK and ordered it.

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - afterglowefx - 2014-01-09

I'm not so sure the time-investment is worth it for anybody after less than basic fluency. It's a ton of work putting all those kanji into your brain when basic visual-recognition would suffice in nearly all cases. I mean, even living in Japan, the amount of times I've actually had to write kanji have been ... well, you could probably get away with never writing, ever.

It certainly makes visual recognition miles easier when you can write the kanji, but I wonder if you wouldn't achieve the same basic effect reading it more times. I don't really know.

I was really hesitant for a long time about RTK because I had always read it lacks any foundation in the actual Japanese language (being all English), but now that I'm on the verge of finishing it I can definitely say it's helped me. It's certainly been a boon for learning new vocab--with the kanji already familiar, the reading is the only thing I really need to focus on. And that seems to take far less time than doing both in tandem.

That said, I find the English keywords pretty much useless for everyday-Japanese. Most kanji have too many meanings for it to really work, and a lot of compounds don't make sense regardless. (Although, yesterday, I was able to write 警告 on the board when asked what 'warning' meant without ever having read or studied the compound--you just see it everywhere and the English keywords actually make sense for once!)

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - tokyostyle - 2014-01-10

afterglowefx Wrote:I'm not so sure the time-investment is worth it for anybody after less than basic fluency. It's a ton of work putting all those kanji into your brain when basic visual-recognition would suffice in nearly all cases. I mean, even living in Japan, the amount of times I've actually had to write kanji have been ... well, you could probably get away with never writing, ever.

Oh, I keep forgetting that people still learn RTK in the Heisig direction. I learned it backwards (kanji->vague meaning) and continue to do so for RTK3. If I wanted to improve my kanji writing ability I would do something more targeted at what I needed to write.

It takes me about 2-3 minutes to do 50 reps so it's a very, very small amount of my study time.

As far as writing goes, I always have my phone with me. It would take a lot of kanji writing training to get the point where typing everything into my phone and then copying it down on paper would be slower than attempting to write it from memory with no errors. Personally I find it easier to invest in a spare battery than to practice for the 2-3 days a year I find I need to write something by hand.

There is some minimal amount of kanji writing that is necessary to ingrain the basic stoke order and patterns in your head and that's still important but it shouldn't take writing every rep of all 2000 kanji to achieve that.

(Note: Some people will have learning styles that make one direction more effective than the other. This should be the most important factor in deciding which direction to go.)

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - hyvel - 2014-01-10

afterglowefx Wrote:I mean, even living in Japan, the amount of times I've actually had to write kanji have been ... well, you could probably get away with never writing, ever.

Well, being able to write down your address in kanji is often useful, but that's already just about everything you need to know. Add in some other fragments that you often have to fill into forms and you're good to go!

RTK for intermediate/advanced learners - afterglowefx - 2014-01-11

tokyostyle Wrote:As far as writing goes, I always have my phone with me. It would take a lot of kanji writing training to get the point where typing everything into my phone and then copying it down on paper would be slower than attempting to write it from memory with no errors. Personally I find it easier to invest in a spare battery than to practice for the 2-3 days a year I find I need to write something by hand.

There is some minimal amount of kanji writing that is necessary to ingrain the basic stoke order and patterns in your head and that's still important but it shouldn't take writing every rep of all 2000 kanji to achieve that.

You're right, of course, about using the phone. Once you've got a basic feel for stroke order and you're familiar with the kanji (via Heisig in our case but not necessarily so) I imagine for most people the pay-off would be small compared to the time investment. That said, Japanese begin to suffer from the same thing. My boss is in her 50s and she keeps telling me I can write more than she can. She's half exaggerating of course, because a foreigner writing kanji is mind-boggling to Japanese, but it's also half true.

However, if your end-goal is fluency and/or you're planning on remaining in Japan long-term, I don't see it as wasted effort. I knew the most common readings of ~1000 or so kanji based on visual-recognition alone before I started RTK. That said, now that I'm close to finishing RTK, seeing new kanji and memorizing their meaning/reading is literally two to three times easier. Every time I practice kanji it reinforces vocab, and every time I do vocab it reinforces kanji. Once I finish RTK I'll rep the whole SRS deck to mature, then start transitioning to Japanese-only (especially compounds, which are tricky from memory).

It's not necessary, I'd probably see better gains focusing on other areas of the language, but my end-goal does happen to be fluency. And there's also 120 million Japanese people expecting me to fail, so why not add kanji to my list of mind-blowing "Japanese-only" talents--like chopstick usage, driving a car, and the ability to eat sushi, for example.

hyvel Wrote:Well, being able to write down your address in kanji is often useful, but that's already just about everything you need to know. Add in some other fragments that you often have to fill into forms and you're good to go!

It's mildly useful, sure, but I've been able to use romaji for every single form that's been handed to me, ever. Including very official ones like national health insurance, driver's license applications, visa applications, city hall stuff, etc. That said, you feel like a child and it'd certainly be nice to do it in Japanese!