+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: Off topic (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-13.html)
+--- Thread: More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り (/thread-11450.html)
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - drdunlap - 2014-01-06
I think I got better. Maybe. I'm still too lazy to do subtitles.. if only I had more giveadamn.
Anywho rambling about the idea of changing thought process in language learning.
babble babble rabble rabble
It's kind of fun, kind of embarrassing, and kind of telling of the progress I made but didn't realize I was making over the past year. After all, I've just kind of been existing in Japanese for a year.
Maybe next time I'll get drunk and ramble angrily about why the Japanese school system is actually destroying everyone's chance at ever learning English to a reasonable level.
Curious people give it a looksy!
[語学] 考え方を変えよう
Since there are no subtitles...
I basically say stuff like "Hey it's been a year since I did that other video hot damn."
As well as more important things like "Don't think in Japanese when you speak English. Or vice versa. It's weird." -- despite being seemingly common sense there are many people who don't get it.
and
"Don't ask "how do I say X in English?" - instead, ask "What do you say in English in this situation?""
Examples from the video:
After running 10 kilos.. 「疲れた」 = "I'm tired."
Not "I was tired" or "I got tired" as I hear so often from Japanese friends.
Although curiously 「疲れてる」 can work in this instance and be a more direct translation of the English, it's more common as a random outburst of emotion to use 疲れた.
Also いただきます -- no, Japanese friends, I will not translate that for you. We don't say that in English.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - tashippy - 2014-01-07
Nice vid, Doc.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - tokyostyle - 2014-01-07
drdunlap Wrote:I basically say stuff like ...... "If you try to think in English while speaking Japanese then your Japanese is just going to come out weird and messed up." I almost spit coffee on my computer after you said this because I was laughing so hard! (Actually I chuckled a little every time you said へん even though it sounds completely natural. I've lived in Tokyo my entire time here so it still sounds cute.)
Awesome video! I wish all language teachers gave similar advice as I was super stuck in the "How do you say X in Japanese" mentality when I started learning. Asking how a native speaker would react in a given situation is much better learning strategy!
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - Arupan - 2014-01-07
.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - drdunlap - 2014-01-07
My point in the video is more something to remain aware of than a concrete "study method."
I'm not 100% sure what you're trying to say considering you agree with me but disagree with the main point?
Definitive Therapy vs. Symptomatic Treatment -- Why suffer in sickness and go to the doctor every time you get the flu when you can just get a flu shot and not worry about it so much anymore? You may still get the flu but your chances are significantly less. Ok so it's not a 100% perfect analogy but you get the point!The fact that いただきます does not exist in English and the fact that the same idea is expressed in two different tenses in English and Japanese is just the surface representation of a deeper problem- English speakers and Japanese speakers think differently.
To speak fluently in another language you must, to some degree, think in that language. When you've got that down it feels as if you're not thinking at all. Of course your native language will still interfere from time to time unless you're a genius (or a kid?) but...
To speak smoothly and more native-like you must do away with the workings of your native language as much as you possibly can- and that's a constant battle. It's not so much "hard" as it is.. a slightly annoying, slightly necessary extra step?
I can hear people thinking in Japanese when they speak English and in English when they speak Japanese. It's like mind reading. Of *course* everyone's going to do this for a while but if we keep it in mind as a thing to improve upon we'll be always ready to question whether or not what we're saying is *actually* proper English/Japanese/etc. This will keep us in line and lead to significant improvements in how natural we can become in our second language. I still sometimes google search phrases and etc. while I'm composing Japanese in my head and on paper to make sure what I'm saying is proper Japanese. Every now and then I catch a little English interference. I've been doing it forever and it's one of the things that got me as far as I've come. So I thought I'd share. :]
PS- totally unrelated but.. I haven't gotten a flu shot. (´・ω・｀)
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - Arupan - 2014-01-07
.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - drdunlap - 2014-01-07
You've misunderstood me in a way that I didn't mean to be misunderstood.
For example: 100% of my Anki cards have English definitions on them. This isn't a forum.koohii.com "don't translate yo immerse yoself" thing. It's a "when you're talking" or "when you're trying to figure out what to say in L2" don't translate.. thing. :]
The "translate" here is "直訳" :]
It'd suck if you could never work between your languages. There are, of course, words and phrases that I learned completely through immersion and can't translate well but whatevs. I can translate ideas and that's what I mean.
Edit:
Arupan Wrote:Claiming that "Japanese school system is actually destroying everyone's chance at ever learning English," however, is a bit extreme and with which I can't agree.Hypebole, yo. :o
Also unrelated to the translate thing. Just something I observed.
They're setting people up to think about language learning in a wonky way.
There may be a video on this later. :x
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - Arupan - 2014-01-07
.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - nadiatims - 2014-01-07
Nice nihongoing!
But I don't think translation is really that problematic. It's just what you fall back on when your level is still crap, a phase everyone MUST go through. Being crap that is.
Odd speech due to obvious translation (like in your examples) is a symptom of still having misunderstandings about how the language/tenses work or what particular words mean. If you don't understand how, for example, tenses work it won't matter that you think in Japanese, because you'll be thinking in incorrect Japanese. If you are high level like you are, you'll have a good initiative understanding of grammar/words/phrases and it shouldn't matter what the source thought for your utterance was. You might have been thinking in images or just replying spontaneously during a conversation. You could translate an English saying for instance (directly even in many cases) and not sound odd at all. You may even come across as eloquent. It all comes down to the skill and experience of the speaker in question. It's not as if all foreign metaphors or similes will be lost on the Japanese or that that original ways of expressing things will sound odd. After all people are coming up with new ways to express new ideas and information all the time. Things sound odd when what the listener hears doesn't match what the speaker thinks they are saying. In 99% of cases this comes down to some misunderstanding regarding word choice or grammar. And this is inevitable for all learners for a very long time.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - drdunlap - 2014-01-07
nadiatims Wrote:...Right. So. Changing the thought process first by changing the questions we ask when we're attempting to find a way to say something and, by doing so, eventually changing the whole thought process from L1 to L2! Overall advice for the overall bettering of ze skillz..!
If this were a magical elixir that fixed everything in a heartbeat I'd be rich and famous in no time! Unfortunately it's just something to keep in mind that many people (who aren't language learning fanatics) don't even think about. (´・ω・｀)
Edit: PS- I still google search phrases n' such quite a bit in an attempt to keep my thinking in line. I've been doing it since I started all this self study shtuff. It helps me make sure I'm producing natural Japanese and keep interference to a minimum.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - Thora - 2014-01-07
I pretty much agree with arupan and nadia's comments and would be interested in talking a bit more about some of the points they raised in more detail.
But first, putting the video's content aside for a moment, I'm not sure I really get the purpose of these videos. (Wrong generation?) Who is the Japanese audience you're addressing, drdunlop? Your students? Friends? Fans? Random folks on Youtube? Do you expect to get feedback on your Japanese? Do you have a language learning website?
I'm guessing the reason for posting it here is to use your speaking skills to inspire other learners who might not have any other opportunity to hear foreigners speaking Japanese. Is that about right?
I'm quite excited about the explosion of language self-learning and peer sharing/teaching opportunities on the internet. Motivating each other is another plus. (This is the stuff we could only dream about when I was in school!)
What bothers me, however, is that some ideas which become popular are not very good ideas. And it can be difficult to challenge those ideas for a number of reasons unrelated to the substantive issues.
I would love to hear drdunlop support some of his language learning advice (in various threads) with more than his own amazing results and without reverting to his "Mr Hippy Chill doesn't study, yo" persona. :p I'd love to hear more precise explanations of overused slogans like "thinking in Japanese" and "getting used to Japanese" and "just do it"... (ugh) Can we try something new? Can we focus on the best interests of other learners?
To me, the content of this video ranges from utterly banal (suggesting drdunlop has low expectations of other learners) to potentially harmful advice (hopefully more on that later.) Sorry. Perhaps future Japanese videos could be about his gourmet cooking, his favorite literature, his musical compositions, his reputation as a connoisseur of craft beer, or his distance running. That way people could be doubly inspired!
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - Ampharos64 - 2014-01-07
Nice to hear you speaking Japanese (although subtitles would be good). : )
drdunlap Wrote:I can hear people thinking in Japanese when they speak English and in English when they speak Japanese. It's like mind reading. Of *course* everyone's going to do this for a while but if we keep it in mind as a thing to improve upon we'll be always ready to question whether or not what we're saying is *actually* proper English/Japanese/etc.Definitely know what you mean there, it makes me smile when, for instance, I'm playing a game in English, and I can guess what the Japanese phrase must've been even before I check. It's one of the things that really interests me, due to its relevance to translating, and the kind of decisions you have to make about being more literal, or tying to figure out what the 'spirit' of the phrase is and translate accordingly. It makes sense people might end up speaking a kind of 'translationese' as well as writing it, if they're not careful to be aware of the potential issue.
Thora Wrote:I'd love to hear more precise explanations of overused slogans like "thinking in Japanese" and "getting used to Japanese" and "just do it"... (ugh) Can we try something new? Can we focus on the best interests of other learners?Hmm, well, for 'getting used to Japanese', I think it's pretty readily apparent how that works on a basic level, at least. For an example, show a random person a long-ish Japanese word like itadakimasu or something, and watch them stumble completely over the pronunciation (they don't know kana so don't know how to start with breaking the sounds down, and the sounds of the language seem very unfamiliar). See if they have more trouble learning (and pronouncing) a list of Japanese words compared to a vocab list from a language closer to English. When I took a Japanese class at Uni, even though all I'd done before I started was learn kana and listen (attentively) to lots of Japanese (music, anime, movies), it was really obvious the advantage it gave - the language just didn't sound like incomprehensible foreign gibberish to me (it absolutely had done, at one point), the same way it did to those who weren't as used to it. Kana was a stumbling block for them, so that was a factor, but even without that, I'm pretty convinced their progression would've been worse than with more familiar languages - my high school French and German classes never had the same amount of trouble, and that was with a class of people who hadn't actually chosen to study the languages, and in most cases didn't want to.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - drdunlap - 2014-01-07
Kind words and not-so-kind words. Debate. Good times. If everyone unanimously agreed I'd be scared that I was doing something wrong - so thanks for that. However, I have no interest in splitting hairs now that I've made my point. This video, and its advice, carry far more weight when falling on Japanese ears and that is where it was originally intended to fall.
This video is one of many of its kind on Youtube. Advice from a person who did a thing to people who are trying to do the same thing. The intended audience is, admittedly, Japanese language learners.
So why post it here!?
I'm glad you asked! I know that, at least in my own experience, seeing people succeeding in something difficult I am trying to do is very motivating. As this forum is full of people in varying stages of Japanese study- I thought it would be nice to share. Nothing more. Many people here can understand its contents and many can't.
If my ideas are not good ones, do not follow them.
If they are potentially harmful, then I must be simply very lucky to have escaped my study unscathed. I'm not of the opinion that such is the case, however. Perhaps inability to properly explain myself and the English speaking world's love of hairsplitting are to blame. I can fix neither easily. |:
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - socrat - 2014-01-07
dude, nice video.
but what's with the ads? Is that allowed to post to a video with ads.
I always make sure I have no ad's enabled on videos I post on this site.
Definitely the more videos we share the better though so keep it up.
Also,
Generally agree with what you said. I would liken it to using an "image" in your mind. So instead of using words to say what you want to say in whatever language, use an image in your mind and then describe that.
Also, btw, my jp wife said you sound very japanese in your pauses and manner. She only
notice one thing that gave you away... Something about your を pronunciation somewhere. Will try to get more details and edit this post.
Compared to another recent non native jp video I watched where they person used advanced vocab and stiff language to describe a complicated topic, yours is more natural and is like everyday spoken language. btw, This is the other video I'm comparing too.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - nadiatims - 2014-01-07
@socrat
The guy in that video is speaking very very good Japanese. Probably native Japanese or grew up bilingual.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - dtcamero - 2014-01-07
I agree good video. Thora you're great and well meaning but I think your comments are a little over-zealous in this case.
1つだけの質問があります…そんな関西弁だらけ日本語は一体何？
関西に住んでいますか？標準語も楽に喋れますか？
色んな場合でそんな話し方が役に立たないでしょう…
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - socrat - 2014-01-08
nadiatims Wrote:@socrat@nadiatims, yea very good! amazing what he can do with all those languages.
The guy in that video is speaking very very good Japanese. Probably native Japanese or grew up bilingual.
He's actually a native Chinese speaker.
I'm just relaying what the native JP speaker said. His video sounds more bookish and not as natural as drdunlaps.
Guess it proves that keeping it simple and natural is best.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - drdunlap - 2014-01-08
socrat Wrote:[other video]That guy's really good but he has an accent too. If there's one thing I can do well it's *hear* the slight off-ness in foreign Japanese- including my own. Even if I can't fix it.
He's also not speaking Kansai-ben and I know how weird Kansai-ben can sound to people very accustomed to standard Japanese. :x I know I've got a slight accent and I'm ok with it. It's clearly cleared up a good bit in the past year and even if it never gets perfect... meh. Well I'll be a little sad, I guess. 8)dtcamero Wrote:1つだけの質問があります…そんな関西弁だらけ日本語は一体何？ん？自分こそ、そのいきなり上から目線はなんやねん(笑)
関西に住んでいますか？標準語も楽に喋れますか？
色んな場合でそんな話し方が役に立たないでしょう…
それに日本人ならまだマシやけど、自分ちゃうやろ？外国人やろ？何喧嘩売ってんねん！(笑)
役に立たないでしょうとか誰様のつもりやねんｗｗ
標準語が喋れなくて何が悪い？？
と、僕が関西人やったらちょっとカッとなったやろうなー
まあでも僕はアメリカ人やし、これもいい例になるからな、英語と日本語の考え方の違いの。また別の意味で。ありがとう、助かりました(笑)
こんな「関西弁だらけ日本語」は、関西に住んでるし知り合いもみんなザ・関西人やから自然にこうなってしまったんです(笑)彼女も大阪生まれ大阪育ちやしな。
大阪のビアパブでも働いたことあるし・・はい、今は自然にこんな感じです。
標準語聞くと違和感があるくらいです(笑)
でもまだパーフェクトにはなってないです。
標準語は、楽だとは言わんけどまあまあごまかせます(笑)
でもイントネーションやリズムは無理です。頑張れば言葉遣いくらいはなんとなく真似できます(笑)
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - nadiatims - 2014-01-08
Fight fight fight!
@socrat
I wouldn't really call that guy's language bookish. This may be a case of being judged more critically due to being Asian (ie. less wow factor from a japanese point of view.)
There are plenty of better examples of advanced but bookish japanese.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - s0apgun - 2014-01-08
drdunlap Wrote:As this forum is full of people in varying stages of Japanese study- I thought it would be nice to share. Nothing more. Many people here can understand its contents and many can't.On that note, I was able to understand nearly most of what you said in this video. Where as back when the beer videos were posted I was clueless to more than half of it. So if anything it was a good measure for me so thanks for that!
Your advice has helped my studying habits immensely, even though I was told similar generic advice before I even started RTK a year or two ago from AJATT. I think you give great explanations to why its important and it's helped me break down some important barriers. Reading novels everyday now without any fear and it feels more like relaxation time than study time. The only thing that feels like studying now a days is SRS but thats only a small amount time out of my total activities spent doing Japanese per day.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - drdunlap - 2014-01-08
nadiatims Wrote:Fight fight fight!Fight fiiight. To bad I'm a fake Osakan so I can't be bothered to fight. ;p
@socrat
I wouldn't really call that guy's language bookish. This may be a case of being judged more critically due to being Asian (ie. less wow factor from a japanese point of view.)
There are plenty of better examples of advanced but bookish japanese.
That guy's Japanese is good but it's not perfect. And that's perfectly fine. I hope. For my own sake as well as his. :x It's certainly not bookish but the flow is a little odd. But who cares? :| (Japanese people who don't hear many foreign accents. That's who. D: )
s0apgun Wrote:stuffThank ye for the kind words sir.
More talking at a computer in Japanese AKA 噛み祭り - tashippy - 2014-01-08
What about the 'bookish' guy's English at 11:05. It's kind of like watching a freestyle rapper. I think he is freestyling in each language with a different topic for each.
All this focus on accent distracts me from listening for meaning (at first).