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Cloze delete and recognition - Printable Version

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Cloze delete and recognition - egoplant - 2014-01-01

I'm just wondering if cloze deletion cards help you with recognition at all? Can someone tell me their experience with cloze deletion cards?

Cloze delete and recognition - Aikynaro - 2014-01-01

There's a thread on 'MCDs' one of the other sections that was recently resurrected, which are basically cloze deletion cards with a wanky name.
I don't think they would help with recognition much - they're basically a production tool (you can't really recognise something that's been left out of the sentence). My experience was that they're not good for learning vocabulary, but I'd guess they'd be good for correcting mistakes with particles.

Cloze delete and recognition - egoplant - 2014-01-01

So they are only for output? How come some people recommend to do MCD (and nothing else) then? How would you be able to start reading effectively?

Cloze delete and recognition - Aikynaro - 2014-01-01

I'm no expert - I only tried them when I was first getting serious about learning Japanese and they were terrible for my purposes then. It's possible that if you know a lot of Japanese already they're useful in learning more of it.
I'm not sure how many people actually recommend them exclusively though, and I'd imagine those that do would be pretty hardcore AJATT followers. It's preached over there that they are The Way.
But yeah, basically it's testing either your memory of the sentence, your ability to guess what word should fit into the sentence given the context, or your understanding of a grammar point. I guess there's recognition and reading involved, but whether you pass the card or not depends on whether you can output the missing information.

What's your goal/why are you considering them?

Cloze delete and recognition - egoplant - 2014-01-01

I was thinking of just switching from a basic vocab recognition deck to a cloze delete deck. Are you supposed to be able to write the kanji? Because I have no interest in being able to write them at all.

EDIT: What do you think about having a deck that is similar to a cloze delete deck, except instead of deleting the word, you just bold it? I'm just kind of boring of doing straight kanji -> reading / definition, I think context would speed things up at least, but I'm afraid it won't help me learn the word as well for some reason.

EDIT2: I was thinking like this:
[Image: 65thL.png]
[Image: 65ti0.png]

Do you think something like this would work for recognition? Or do you think I would just end up remembering the sentence and not the word?

Cloze delete and recognition - Aikynaro - 2014-01-01

Well, that's pretty much what I switched to (minus the bolding, but there's usually one word per card that I'm aiming to learn and bolding isn't really necessary). I think that format works well for recognition - but it's not perfectly efficient. I quite often add the same word on different cards with different sentences because it didn't really sink in on the first card even though I might recognise it fine when that card comes up. Cloze deletion forces you to really know the word before you can pass the card and it gets mature while sentence recognition doesn't, but recognition is vastly easier and I feel I'm better off for it.

My cards look like this:
[Image: 2ahy0io.png]
(there's audio too, which is a very nice thing to have)

Cloze delete and recognition - egoplant - 2014-01-01

How do you think it works compared to just a single word on the front? Does it make it easier to remember for the card? Does it make it easier to remember in the wild? What do you think the pros or cons are?

Cloze delete and recognition - Aikynaro - 2014-01-01

It's vastly better than a single word on the front, mostly because it exposes you to grammar things as well. You see the word in forms that aren't just the dictionary one and are exposed to all the other 'grammar words' in the sentences. My grammar study has been half-arsed-to-nothing, but I think I understand things okay.
Plus, making the goal to understand a sentence rather than recall a definition of a word is just ... generally ... more useful? It's pretty uncommon to need to recall a single word without context in the wild, while understanding what a sentence means is pretty much what the whole learning-Japanese thing is about. It's good practice.
Of course, single word is a lot faster to go through and that almost certainly counts for something.
I'm not really sure if it makes it easier to recognise in the wild or not. I've been using my current deck with the above format for over a year - before that MCDs and before that single words. But back then I didn't have much capacity to recognise anything in the wild. I do sometimes remember words by hearing it in the voice of the character who says it on my cards, if that counts.

(I'm kind of monopolising the thread and talking like an expert here, but ... probably don't make any judgements from what I say alone...)

Cloze delete and recognition - Daichi - 2014-01-01

My Subs2SRS cards are kinda similar to Aikynaro's, but I do highlight individual focus words. I used to underline them but more recently I've just been colorizing as it stands out more.

I more generate context lines for my cards. Both in Japanese and English. It makes things certainly more memorable for myself. I used to omit the English translations from my card generation, but I've found them useful enough to just leave them in. If needed, I'll add the actual dictionary definition above the English translation.

[Image: Anki_Subs2SRS_Madoka_01.png]

I find these work fairly well for vocab acquisition. I've been considering doing some Cloze deletion cards for production with my more mature morphemes but it seems like a lot of work to setup. So I'd be interested in more thoughts on this.

I agree that sentences work way better then individual vocab words. Seeing the word in action is part of learning it. With subs2srs and morphology, it's not hard to see the same vocab word in other contexts if something isn't clicking right.

Cloze delete and recognition - egoplant - 2014-01-01

Well I think I'm going to try it like how I set it up in the above pictures. Hopefully it doesn't screw up my progress. I'll still of course keep doing my vocabulary reps.

There are two other advantages I can see with doing this.

The first is, with problem words, it doesn't hurt just to add another card with a new sentence, where as with straight vocab, it would kind of be pointless.

The second is you can have definitions matching up with the sentences, where on my old vocabulary cards, some of them would have multiple definitions. With sentences you can distinguish which definition it is based on the context so you can keep it to one a card.

Since someone brought up AJATT earlier, is this what his 10,000 sentence approach is? I've never really read that site, but I've heard people reference it a lot.

Cloze delete and recognition - Aikynaro - 2014-01-01

Yeah, this is the 10000 sentences approach, basically.

Where are you planning to get your sentences from?

Cloze delete and recognition - egoplant - 2014-01-01

Aikynaro Wrote:Yeah, this is the 10000 sentences approach, basically.

Where are you planning to get your sentences from?
Anything that I read, I guess. I assume anything that's written by natives is good enough to learn from. For example, here is something I got from 2ch:
[Image: 66inj.png]
And here is something I got from Kino No Tabi (which I just started):
[Image: 66isM.png]
Both of these words I already know, but I figure it wouldn't hurt to add some words I was having trouble with from my vocabulary cards, but I'll be mostly focusing on new stuff of course.