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+--- Thread: Learning Japanese...where do I start? (/thread-11396.html)
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - DualShell - 2013-12-16
I have been interested in Japanese culture and lifestyle for a while now...so I would like to know how I could understand and talk back to those who also speak Japanese the only problem is...where do I start?
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - zurisu - 2013-12-16
May I recommend Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for Beginners?
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-17
You start with the Kana. From there, there are two directions:
1. if you feel up to it, you can study the Kanji with English meanings, without learning any actual Japanese for a few months (with the help of Heisig's Remember the Kanji book, and this site's study section). Then, proceed to learning grammar and vocab with Kanji.
2. You can dive straight into learning Japanese vocab and grammar, with furigana (Hiragana over the Kanji). I recommend the optimized, closed deleted deck from Anki's shared decks titled "Core 2k/6k Optimized Japanese Vocabulary" as a starting point. Make sure you read the comment section when you download the deck, it's very helpful in setting the deck up correctly. Feel free to use other resources (i.e. Tae Kim's Grammar site), to help you understand the grammar used in the deck, or for various other helpful materials (for instance it's helpful to study counters all together, rather than as dozens of unrelated words to be studied separately).
In both cases, complement your studies with lots and lots of media. Websites, forums, books, manga, movies, TV, sports, music, radio, podcasts, etc.. Time spent enjoying Japanese stuff should be at least two-three times the time spent studying. (I, for instance, only have 30 minutes/day to study Japanese; but I spend several hours watching Japanese entertainment at night or listening to radio while driving, walking, exercising, or as I fall asleep; and I'm progressing very well, getting noticeably better every month). If you go with option nr. 1, you should focus mainly on written materials and media with Japanese subs, if you go with nr. 2, you should focus on talk radio and podcasts.
I think most people on this site would recommend option nr. 1, because, after all, that is what this site is primarily for. I started with nr. 1 too. However, lately I've been leaning towards the notion that nr. 2 might be the better way to start, because it's a much quicker path towards being able to enjoy at least the spoken aspect of the language. And reaching that point as quickly as possible is the number one factor in determining whether a person ends up learning their target language, or giving up in frustration.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - Betelgeuzah - 2013-12-17
Continuing from what Stansfield said, using the RtK lite may act as a good middleground. Moreover, I would not neglect grammar studies completely while studying the kanji. I would leave vocab studies for after having completed the RtK however.
To give you some insight as to why to start off by studying kanji separately:
Kanjis essentially have four dimensions you may need to memorize. For a full understanding you need to be able to write the kanji using correct stroke orders and such (which helps you to look up kanjis from a dictionary too). You also need to distinguish the kanji from other kanjis and recognize them in written material. Thirdly you need to be able to know the spelling of the kanji in any given word (there often being multiple spellings for any single kanji). Lastly you need to memorize the meaning of kanji (compounds) as a Japanese word.
This is a massive ordeal to memorize at once for any single kanji and this is why many people opt for memorizing the dimensions separately. Heisig's book teaches you to write the kanji properly and helps you to distinguish and recognize it. This is more manageable to do than trying to learn everything simultaneously. You also learn some meanings in the process to help you in your vocab studies but they are approximations at best, misleading at worst.
However if you do not see much value in being able to handwrite the kanji and know the stroke order then skipping Heisig's book is an option for you. In the end while studying vocabulary you need to learn to distinguish and recognize the kanji while memorizing the meaning and reading of the words. It's going to be a lot tougher without being familiar with the kanjis beforehand but it is doable.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-17
Sure, Heisig Lite is an option. And so are many other ways to study Kanji.
But the main point I'm trying to get across is that one can learn to understand and speak a lot of Japanese without any Kanji at all, using only Kana. That's a radically different approach than any kind of studying that involves Kanji (be it with Heisig, half of Heisig, or some other method).
That doesn't mean one won't have to start studying Kanji eventually. In fact I freely admit (and warn anyone who reads this) that ignoring the Kanji for so long early on means that it will take longer to complete the journey and become a true master of the Japanese language and culture, than if one were to learn with Kanji from the start (because reading anything substantial, like novels, is pretty much out of the question without Kanji). So, instead of let's say 5 years of habitual, frequent use of the language, it might possibly take 6.
But I think getting to a point where one understands spoken Japanese, as quickly as possible, might be more important than becoming a true master as quickly as possible. And you will get to that level of "competence" there much quicker, by dumping the Kanji. I'd say up to twice as fast. And getting to competence so much quicker improves the odds of eventually completing the journey (reduces the window of time in which language learners tend to lose motivation because they have no way of enjoying the fruits of their labor).
I think it might just be a worthwhile trade to delay mastery in favor of a much, much quicker competence in spoken Japanese. I'm not even saying that it's what everyone should do. But everyone should be aware that it's an option worth considering. Especially for people who also have jobs or college, and can only study Japanese on the side.
[edit] I said "study with Kana" through the whole thread, but what I actually mean is study with Furigana, without paying attention to the Kanji. Just let the Kanji be proverbial black boxes, with no other meaning to them except that they're there. Don't get rid of them. Even as meaningless squares, they're very helpful for understanding/interpreting grammar.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - Aikynaro - 2013-12-17
How to study Japanese is, of course, a very big topic with no consensus about what's the best way. It's pretty much up to you to decide what you're comfortable with, and you might need to try a method for a month or two before deciding it's not for you and trying something else. I think the only really important thing is that whatever you do, it's something you can do consistently (as in every day).
It's going to take a long time and going to take up a lot of your time, and there's not much point half-arsing it because you'll never get anywhere. So yeah, study every day, not in dribs and drabs when you feel inspired to.
Personally, I'm a big fan of Stanfield's #2 approach. Of course, there are trade-offs for not having studied kanji, but it doesn't become a bottleneck for a long time (when you want to read stuff aimed at adults, basically - and that probably won't be for a while ... depending on the study approach you decide to take, of course).
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - afterglowefx - 2013-12-17
I'd throw in a quick caveat on putting off the kanji from somebody who didn't really put much effort into them until hitting 2000-2500 words or so:
If you're dead sure that your goal is fluency and you have a very good reason for needing that fluency (manga probably doesn't qualify here), I'd go ahead and do the kanji first a la Heisig. It's true you can do it anytime, but if you're in for the long haul it will make later steps much easier. Trust me, I know--you will hit a wall at some point without kanji.
If you're not 100% sure you want fluency and/or don't have a very solid reason for reaching such high proficiency, then skipping the kanji has some benefits. You'll see a lot of early gains, you'll get a bigger immediate return on your time investment, and it's easier to stay motivated.
Basically:
Hobby - Do whatever you want, kanji or not, just enjoy the time you put in.
Need - I'd probably do the kanji first.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - fxlle - 2013-12-18
Hi, I'm also very interested in Japanese culture. Previous, I am afraid whether I can accomplish such a long-suffering study. But finally I make up my mind. The crutial point is to adjust strategies, to find out an available manner of ourself. So I seek a lot of experiences of others. And then follow the conclusion and project：
1, loan-words. Memory some essential words, don't memory most of it.
2, The most important thing is to remember the special nouns and verbs.
3, After contacting Kanji for a period, we can guess the voices of it.
4, Needn't to speak smoothly, just to catch the MP3 plainly.
5, Review the fifty elements once a day. Speaking.
6, Concentrate on one resource/book.
7, Remember the grammer first. For words, put it in the inferior, just to memory the words which are in major passages.
"It's difficult to memory words primely, however we can memory them skillfully after a period of study." Says precursors.
So, in the initial, I want to memory words for preferences, and then compare among similar words. When learn the book, I record the strange words and its traslation in a notebook. And then memory, when I cover it, I can still remember it. So it's time for shifting to another groups of words. Won't memory it again and again. Then sunset of next day, review it once. Read the original passages to memory words instead of browsing the words and its transration. Also an another notebook for the translation of native lauguage only, no Japanese words in it, can review words through it. This manner solve a big problem of memoring words while I don't penetrate Japanese words so much.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - tom_b - 2013-12-18
There's a great app for that
Mirai Japanese
Disclaimer: I work on the team that made this app. We've spent several years in Tokyo designing the course and incrementally improving the presentation of the app.
What's most important about learning a language is being introduced to the language in context. A lot of methods out there unfortunately are just word and sentence lists. It's really hard to learn a language using a phrase book. Languages have a lot of intricacies that need to be explained. We use native Japanese speakers for correct audio pronunciations, and an English narrator for the grammar explanations, offering context to the concepts being introduced.
Learn the kana first, then move on to kanji. The app covers kana in the first 50 lessons, and then introduces kanji steadily.
James Heisig's "Remembering the Kanji" and this website are great complementary tools for kanji learning.
Give the app a try, and let me know what you think. Also, the team at Mirai has made a beautifully illustrated "Hiragana Guide", which will help you learn the hiragana. Email me and I will send you a copy.
Good luck with your Japanese studies!
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - Xanpakuto - 2013-12-18
tom_b Wrote:What's most important about learning a language is being introduced to the language in context. A lot of methods out there unfortunately are just word and sentence lists. It's really hard to learn a language using a phrase book. Languages have a lot of intricacies that need to be explained. We use native Japanese speakers for correct audio pronunciations, and an English narrator for the grammar explanations, offering context to the concepts being introduced.What's wrong with word and sentence lists if I may ask?
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - tom_b - 2013-12-18
Xanpakuto Wrote:Nothing is wrong with them per se. They serve well as review material. However, they aren't very useful for introducing new information to the learner, since they don't really explain the information. Context is necessary to do that.tom_b Wrote:What's most important about learning a language is being introduced to the language in context. A lot of methods out there unfortunately are just word and sentence lists. It's really hard to learn a language using a phrase book. Languages have a lot of intricacies that need to be explained. We use native Japanese speakers for correct audio pronunciations, and an English narrator for the grammar explanations, offering context to the concepts being introduced.What's wrong with word and sentence lists if I may ask?
As a quick example, you may have a vocabulary list with:
かき (kaki) = persimmon
かき (kaki) = oysters
Someone seeing this for the first time might think that the two words are pronounced the same in Japanese, when in fact, they are not (かき 「柿」 for "persimmon" has a 'low-high' pitch pattern, and かき 「牡蠣」 for "oysters" has a 'high-low' pitch pattern). In order to understand how these two words are different in Japanese, one has to first explain the basics of the Japanese pitch accent.
Without more context and explanation, the learner just wouldn't be able to understand all this. That's where a tutor/teacher is necessary, or material that presents such information in context.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-19
tom_b Wrote:Nothing is wrong with them per se. They serve well as review material. However, they aren't very useful for introducing new information to the learner, since they don't really explain the information. Context is necessary to do that.Sure, the main resource I recommended is just a fancy sentence list, so it doesn't offer the kind of detailed explanation you described, but it does offer an accurate translation and native read audio of each sentence. No way it would lead anyone to confuse persimmons with oysters, or miss the fact that they are pronounced differently.
As a quick example, you may have a vocabulary list with:
かき (kaki) = persimmon
かき (kaki) = oysters
Someone seeing this for the first time might think that the two words are pronounced the same in Japanese, when in fact, they are not (かき 「柿」 for "persimmon" has a 'low-high' pitch pattern, and かき 「牡蠣」 for "oysters" has a 'high-low' pitch pattern). In order to understand how these two words are different in Japanese, one has to first explain the basics of the Japanese pitch accent.
Without more context and explanation, the learner just wouldn't be able to understand all this. That's where a tutor/teacher is necessary, or material that presents such information in context.
I do however concede that having a personal tutor is helpful. Having someone who knows to present you with just the right amount of explanations, at the right times, is great. The question is, does your app really give customers that kind of a tutor?
I suspect it doesn't, it just gives them access to automated explanations. I'm not convinced that's the best way to go about it. It's of course up to each person to pick what they study from, but you should try convincing them to use your app not by belittling other suggestions, but by providing reasons why yours is better (the most important among them: were those explanations in your app written by someone with demonstrable expertise and a good reputation?).
As far as your implication that the only alternative to your app, presented in this thread, is word and sentence lists, I, for instance, also suggested a top quality, free resource on Japanese grammar (Tae Kim). I didn't suggest anything on pronunciation, because I don't think that's a priority for a beginner. I think simply listening to the native audio that comes with that Anki deck (I think the audio files can be downloaded from the thread linked to in the second post) is enough.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - tom_b - 2013-12-19
Stansfield123 Wrote:I do however concede that having a personal tutor is helpful. Having someone who knows to present you with just the right amount of explanations, at the right times, is great. The question is, does your app really give customers that kind of a tutor?Yes, our app is carefully planned out to explain each new language concept (grammar and vocab) as it is introduced.
Stansfield123 Wrote:I suspect it doesn't, it just gives them access to automated explanations. I'm not convinced that's the best way to go about it. It's of course up to each person to pick what they study from, but you should try convincing them to use your app not by belittling other suggestions, but by providing reasons why yours is better (the most important among them: were those explanations in your app written by someone with demonstrable expertise and a good reputation?).Please give the app a try - it is free to download and you can try out the first 21 lessons at no cost. The content was developed by a small team of professionals in Tokyo.
Stansfield123 Wrote:As far as your implication that the only alternative to your app, presented in this thread, is word and sentence lists, I, for instance, also suggested a top quality, free resource on Japanese grammar (Tae Kim). I didn't suggest anything on pronunciation, because I don't think that's a priority for a beginner. I think simply listening to the native audio that comes with that Anki deck (I think the audio files can be downloaded from the thread linked to in the second post) is enough.By no means are word/sentence lists the only alternative. There are many great free and paid resources out there. My point was mainly that getting new information from pure word/sentence lists is simply not a great way to learn. There is so much cultural context missing. No language should be learned purely by memorizing word and sentence lists. There are better alternatives. We offer one of them
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-20
Very cool, Tom. You make good points, and I will check the app out.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - imabi - 2013-12-21
Let me first say, Dualshell, that you have chosen an awesome language to learn. There are so many resources online today to help you learn Japanese, and with good advice and materials and hopefully Japanese people along the way, you'll attain whatever goal you've set up for yourself.
Following up on what others have already done in this thread, I'll take the liberty to showcase my own creation for teaching Japanese. For over four years, I have been creating my own website for teaching Japanese: http://www.imabi.net. It is still a work in progress, but it is becoming more popular as I continuously improve on how things are taught and set up. It's been talked about here, for better or for worse, around two years ago, but the site is really not comparable now to what it once was. I try to teach Japanese for what's it is worth in the hopes that this makes things easier down the road and so that the entire language makes more sense.
I offer 255 lessons now, ranging from newbie Japanese to Classical Japanese. I try to answer questions or inquiries as soon as possible, and they almost always result in me bettering the material for the benefit of other users.
Learning Japanese...where do I start? - DualShell - 2013-12-25
Thanks for all these :L