Improving general eloquence in a second language

Improving general eloquence in a second language - Printable Version

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Improving general eloquence in a second language - dizmox - 2013-12-10

I'm trying to become more eloquent in Japanese, so I thought I'd make a general thread fishing for advice from anyone who's reached eloquent native level in a second language. Excluding online activity, Japanese has become my primary language, so as a matter of pride/identity/self-satisfaction I want my ability to reflect that.

I'm functionally fluent (passed JLPT1 over 2 years ago, been living in Japan over a year, been through the whole Japanese job hunting process, native level vocabulary, etc.)　but I kind of fear I'm converging to a technically proficient but ultimately stunted level in the language in terms of active output. I read and watch as much as I can, but I never grew around Japanese people and never went to 国語 classes for years in school practicing essay and creative writing so it's only natural.

To be honest my inspiration mostly comes from fiction rather than wanting to be like an average native, which perhaps makes things easier in a way. I've thought about memorizing lines from characters whose style of speech I admire, which sounds kind of stupid, but I dunno. Maybe it'd work if I really kept at it. I guess instead of eloquence I mean the ability to use language creatively in a particular style. At any rate I feel the ratio of noise to signal in places like 2ch is too high for that kind of thing.

Getting sleepier and sleepier as I write this since it's 1am so I'll stop rambling now. Probably I'll wake up in the morning and wonder why I posted this

Improving general eloquence in a second language - bflatnine - 2013-12-10

I've found this article helpful in improving my Chinese, though my time is very limited these days due to grad school and I can't do as much as I'd like.

"A few thoughts on 'b' languages" by Chris de Fortis
He approaches it from a conference interpreter's perspective, but the ideas are useful outside of that specific context as well.

I'm actually taking a Chinese-English interpretation class (outside of my department) this semester, and it has been tremendously helpful. The basic idea is that we practice interpreting speeches by experts to a general audience, or radio talk shows with invited guest speakers, or survey-level university lectures, or what-have-you. I've learned a lot of vocabulary just by doing this, but I wish I had time to shadow and really master the material. I'm saving it all for when I do have time.

There are very few people who ever reach a truly native-like level in a foreign language. By that I mean something like ILR5, at which level you are fully accepted as well-educated native speakers by real well-educated native speakers because your speaking, listening, reading, and writing are all indistinguishable from theirs. There have been some books published on the people that reach this sort of level (as well as the more human ILR4 or 4+), mostly by Betty Lou Leaver. Achieving Native-Like Second Language Proficiency is one that I can recommend.

Improving general eloquence in a second language - youasuki - 2013-12-10

Did you get the job? What are you working on?

I feel identified with a lot of what you are writing, and I am looking for an answer myself.

Improving general eloquence in a second language - tokyostyle - 2013-12-10

dizmox Wrote:I guess instead of eloquence I mean the ability to use language creatively in a particular style.

It seems like what you need is some perfect practice. If you want to be a comedian, you need to start learning and doing comedy. If you want to be a rapper, better memorize some Japanese rap. This really extends to everything I would think because even if you just wanted to be a weather girl you still have to know that in Japanese you end every forecast sentence ends in -desho.

Perhaps you might want to become a fresh lemon? There's a mentor for that too!

Improving general eloquence in a second language - dtcamero - 2013-12-10

did you read a lot of books in english? probably, right. I think that if you read a lot in japanese you will internalize the same way japanese children did in high school.

someone once (in a rather politically incorrect manner) said something along the lines of "reading great literature is like having a conversation with history's greatest men." internalize their eloquence rather than conjuring up your own, would be my idea in that situation.

Improving general eloquence in a second language - dizmox - 2013-12-10

youasuki Wrote:Did you get the job? What are you working on?

I feel identified with a lot of what you are writing, and I am looking for an answer myself.

I'm still a student, but yeah, I found a job (programming and stuff) applying directly.

dtcamero Wrote:did you read a lot of books in english? probably, right. I think that if you read a lot in japanese you will internalize the same way japanese children did in high school.

Granted I've probably read around 3-4x more books in English than Japanese in my life so I really need to get off the internet and get on with closing that gap, though I think some targeted active practice like tokyostyle mentioned is really warranted here. Maybe obsessively latching onto a reasonably diverse set of characters and absorbing their mannerisms really is a good idea. Maybe writing terrible fanfiction would help... or getting back to FFXIV on a Japanese RP server.

bflatline Wrote:There are very few people who ever reach a truly native-like level in a foreign language.

Then again, most people kinda stop active learning after they reach a certain point... I think if you have such high expectations you're already an outlier. Those books look interesting, I'll check them out. 8-)