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Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - dizmox - 2013-11-08
Yes, I should have been more specific. 8-( Sometimes my cynicism can be too subtle...
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - vileru - 2013-11-08
dtcamero Wrote:I think you need to be more specific for that exception to be true... a middle to middle-high level finance job at a major bank in new york would probably do it. My close friend got a low-vp level job at a major bank here, and since moving here for it he's put on 20 pounds and I haven't seen him more than once a year since. I actually used to see him more when he lived in new jersey. He was over an hour late for his own birthday dinner last year.I've always wondered why so many Japanese accept those conditions. I don't think it's ignorance or lack of opportunities to work in foreign countries because, if that were the case, then why would graduates of elite universities (Todai, Kyodai, Waseda, Keio, etc.), who are competent in their fields and proficient at English, choose to work in Japan when they could easily find work in the West? Highly skilled professionals from China and India are coming to the West in droves because they see the work conditions and salaries as vastly superior than their home countries. I don't see a similar trend happening with highly skilled Japanese professionals, which suggests that they're actually willing to accept the long hours and low pay of a Japanese company even when they're recruitable by high paying, vacation loving foreign firms. What explains this? Different perceptions of the relative status of Japanese vs. foreign companies? Cultural complacency? Loyalty to one's homeland? It's really a mystery to me.
Those people kill themselves for what they do and it's because they make oodles of cash, so the reward is kind of in balance with what they sacrifice (i.e. their youth). weird thing is japanese salarymen work with that intensity for 30k/year.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - Inny Jan - 2013-11-08
vileru Wrote:It's really a mystery to me.It's not a mystery to me. But then again, my heimat is not yours...
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - dizmox - 2013-11-08
Most people are just bad at English. The ones at the universities you mention can generally read okay but can't really speak much unless they've spent a few years abroad - the people who've picked up serious language ability often do find jobs in foreign organisations if they have specialist skills but this is the minority. Most importantly these kinds of people tend to already have good jobs in Japan to begin with so don't have much reason to complain. It's not true that everyone is working 70+ hour weeks for low pay, that's just a small proportion of ブラック企業.
Obviously, a lot of people feel most comfortable in Japan. It's a good place to be if you have a good job.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - vileru - 2013-11-09
dizmox Wrote:Most people are just bad at English. The ones at the universities you mention can generally read okay but can't really speak much unless they've spent a few years abroad - the people who've picked up serious language ability often do find jobs in foreign organisations if they have specialist skills but this is the minority. Most importantly these kinds of people tend to already have good jobs in Japan to begin with so don't have much reason to complain. It's not true that everyone is working 70+ hour weeks for low pay, that's just a small proportion of ブラック企業.I'm not sure about undergrads, but graduate students are expected to be able to do professional presentations in English. When I lived in Sendai, I knew a few PhD students who studied the physical sciences at Tohoku University (a former imperial university), and they were under a lot of pressure to present in English. This chiebukuro post indicates that there are similar expectations at Todai, so I suspect it may be common practice in top tier universities.
Obviously, a lot of people feel most comfortable in Japan. It's a good place to be if you have a good job.
Judging by the people I've met, their spoken English isn't spectacular, but good enough to enter MIT (they require a TOEFL iBT score of 90 and recommend 100+). For reference, a Chinese friend of mine scored over 100, and he received that score when he studying Japanese in Sendai. He has never been to any countries besides China and Japan. His conversational English is quite fluent, but his technical vocabulary is limited and he makes occasional grammatical errors that aren't an obstacle to understanding him. So, it's likely that the Tohoku students could score just as well, if not better.
Setting those facts aside, I definitely sense an inward looking attitude that can't just be explained by "they're not good at English." People see something heroic and desirable in working long hours. To illustrate this, let me mention a personal story. A Japanese I know once toured the MIT campus, and told me it felt like a zoo. She saw students throwing paper airplanes from the top of a staircase, among the other antics that go on there. I assume that their devil may care unconventionality did not harmonize with her received notions of what students at a top university should look like. Yes, I'm sure if you brought someone like Bill O'Reilly or other ultra-conservative to MIT, that person would probably react similarly. However, I can't help seeing a connection between her reaction to MIT and the Japanese culture of job hunting, long hours, and seniority. There's a reason why the solitary junior employee grinding away late at night is a Jdrama cliche. There's a reason why customers admire the people shouting incomprehensible nonsense at Yamada Denki. There's a reason why it's okay to be inefficient as long as you look like you're working really hard. And I don't think "They're not good enough at English" is an adequate explanation for why many people don't consider working outside of this system.
Like my friend, perhaps the cultural character is such that alternatives, like that suggested by the atmosphere of MIT, are deemed distasteful or just plain alien. People caught up in this ideology find comfort and certainty in sticking to one's own culture. Although, I admit, I see this changing, as evidenced Google's top spot in the popularity rankings of companies in Japan. Nonetheless, I think true consideration of alternatives has yet to reach a prominent position in the national consciousness.
Anyway, I suppose I've contradicted myself by saying it's a mystery why Japanese don't just opt out of their work system, and then, in my very next post, offering some kind of explanation for what may be the mechanism behind it. So, perhaps the mystery for me, then, is whether my explanation is accurate or just speculation on holiday. I should probably edit this post for clarity and consistency and reevaluate the logic of my arguments (not to mention, grammar and spelling). However, my eyes are closing and I've spent too much time posting in the past few days. At any rate, I hope this leads to some good discussion.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - dizmox - 2013-11-09
It's not like most graduate students in Japan can speak high level English at all... I mean it'll be understandable when they're presenting something but if they've been in Japan their whole lives then it'll be shaky and unnatural. Often the professor won't completely fluent themselves.
I think you're really overestimating the ability for people to just up and leave Japan for the USA or Europe. Only the very talented or people with a foreign spouse are likely to achieve it.
If enough people get fed up of Japanese companies then practices will change in time. I think that's all can be said about that..
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - ktcgx - 2013-11-09
I'm not so sure. I was a volunteer translator at an ISAITA conference one year, and all the Japanese researchers presented in quite understandable English. I'd say it's more a matter of if they have to use English often enough, and if they care enough to put the effort into getting rid of katakana speech, and improving their grammar etc...
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - uisukii - 2013-11-09
vileru Wrote:A Japanese I know once toured the MIT campus, and told me it felt like a zoo. She saw students throwing paper airplanes from the top of a staircase, among the other antics that go on there. I assume that their devil may care unconventionality did not harmonize with her received notions of what students at a top university should look like. Yes, I'm sure if you brought someone like Bill O'Reilly or other ultra-conservative to MIT, that person would probably react similarly.Not really sure I would be considered even remotely conservative, but I would probably have a similar reaction to the Japanese person in the above. Generally speaking, I'd expect people who managed to be accepted into top universities to be mature enough to act like teenagers outside of class time, in their own time, and while there to get on with what you are there to get on with. Not exactly sure how such an attitude is all that special to be confined to a Japanese or ultra-conservative mindset. Is there something I'm missing?
Further more, it seems as though several other aspects, such as long hours for little pay, seem to be stereotyped to being a "Japanese thing", even though I'm aware of such things happening here in Australia, in places of work which are not even remotely Japanese. Thinking more about it, there seems to be a lot of things which people call weird and "Japanese" even though similar things happen within the own countries. Could it be that they are simply not aware of such happening, whereas often there is a lot of media attention for "oh those strange things which happen in Japan and no where else in the world, not ever, at all (please don't try looking)"?
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - TheVinster - 2013-11-09
uisukii Wrote:What the shit is wrong with throwing paper airplanes in a staircase?vileru Wrote:A Japanese I know once toured the MIT campus, and told me it felt like a zoo. She saw students throwing paper airplanes from the top of a staircase, among the other antics that go on there. I assume that their devil may care unconventionality did not harmonize with her received notions of what students at a top university should look like. Yes, I'm sure if you brought someone like Bill O'Reilly or other ultra-conservative to MIT, that person would probably react similarly.Not really sure I would be considered even remotely conservative, but I would probably have a similar reaction to the Japanese person in the above. Generally speaking, I'd expect people who managed to be accepted into top universities to be mature enough to act like teenagers outside of class time, in their own time, and while there to get on with what you are there to get on with. Not exactly sure how such an attitude is all that special to be confined to a Japanese or ultra-conservative mindset. Is there something I'm missing?
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - Saiga - 2013-11-09
The funny thing is that they were probably studying the aerodynamic properties of hypothetical hypersonic airfoil designs...... or maybe just goofing off
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - dizmox - 2013-11-09
To "why do Japanese people work such long hours for a low salary"... usually they legitimately have work they're busy with. A lack of young people and overabundance of the elderly to support doesn't help matters.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - uisukii - 2013-11-09
TheVinster Wrote:What the shit is wrong with throwing paper airplanes in a staircase?A staircase is a passage of thoroughfare, not a place to be throwing paper airplanes about. I'd generally expect students at a top level university to be more focused on their studies while at school. Do whatever you want outside of school. You can unwind, let of steam, etc. without being obnoxious. What if someone was using the stairwell and out of nowhere a paper airplane smacked them in the eye?
I'd say the same about running in a stairwell. To put it one way: It seems odd to see people behaving in a certain manner in which teachers in highschool would tell pull them in line for. There is a time and place for everything.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - gdaxeman - 2013-11-09
Perhaps that's exactly why working in America, or in most other places where the pay would be higher than in Japan, is not attractive for most Japanese people: they would have to deal all the time with the western point of view that being gregarious, making noise, and showing that you have "lots of friends and fun" is desirable. That can be exasperating.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - uisukii - 2013-11-09
^Maybe that's accurate. While I are not currently able to see anything "conservative" about it, at the same time are unsure, to think of it, what exactly is being conserved. Awareness of others and acting accordingly as to reduce your impact upon them?
It could be possible that my reaction is not in line with what is considered normal western point of view, and perhaps such expectations are considered "conservative" to others. The more I think about it the less sure I am of what constitutes "western point of view", considering I am a "westerner". Politics are confusing.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - Bokusenou - 2013-11-09
gdaxeman Wrote:Perhaps that's exactly why working in America, or in most other places where the pay would be higher than in Japan, is not attractive for most Japanese people they would have to deal all the time with the western point of view that being gregarious, making noise, and showing that you have "lots of friends and fun" is desirable. That can be exasperating.Good point on this. I've learned to act somewhat more extroverted when I'm with people, to make life easier, but it never feels natural, I can't really become an extrovert, and the extroverted part of American culture really tires me out sometimes. In Japanese culture it's easier to be a quiet person without people thinking there is something wrong with you, so some Japanese people might have some adjustment issues moving here.
I don't know about Europe, it might be easier to adjust to than the US, but you're right, everytime one goes to a new country there usually is some element of culture shock.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - vileru - 2013-11-09
gdaxeman Wrote:Perhaps that's exactly why working in America, or in most other places where the pay would be higher than in Japan, is not attractive for most Japanese people: they would have to deal all the time with the western point of view that being gregarious, making noise, and showing that you have "lots of friends and fun" is desirable. That can be exasperating.This actually makes a lot of sense. In fact, I'm hoping to do my postdoc in Japan for these reasons, among others. I find ordinary life in Japan just so much more pleasant than in the U.S.
However, I realize that ordinary life and work life are different. So perhaps I'm curious to find out what makes working in Japan worthwhile because I don't have any work experience there, except for a year at an eikaiwa.
Since I'm already set on doing a postdoc there, though, I'll find out for myself soon enough. Nonetheless, I think it's a helpful question to explore, especially since many other users are interested in working in Japan.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - nadiatims - 2013-11-10
gdaxeman Wrote:Perhaps that's exactly why working in America, or in most other places where the pay would be higher than in Japan, is not attractive for most Japanese people: they would have to deal all the time with the western point of view that being gregarious, making noise, and showing that you have "lots of friends and fun" is desirable. That can be exasperating.Don't lump all westerners or even eigoken together. This is mostly an North American thing. Brits, Aussies, New Zealanders are generally more chilled out in my experience.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - ktcgx - 2013-11-10
nadiatims Wrote:Exactly... I find North Americans very trying too...gdaxeman Wrote:Perhaps that's exactly why working in America, or in most other places where the pay would be higher than in Japan, is not attractive for most Japanese people: they would have to deal all the time with the western point of view that being gregarious, making noise, and showing that you have "lots of friends and fun" is desirable. That can be exasperating.Don't lump all westerners or even eigoken together. This is mostly an North American thing. Brits, Aussies, New Zealanders are generally more chilled out in my experience.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - umetani666 - 2013-11-11
vileru Wrote:To refer back to Tzadeck's point about generalizations, of course there are exceptions.my point was that these are not exceptions. expressing dark or violent emotions through art is a common practice in the west as well. you just need to take a look at any art history book and realize that almost all masters have at least one disturbing work.
i would argue that japanese art is much less violent than, say, european. actually, outside of yoshitoshi and some other individual works, i can't remember much examples of violent art.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - vileru - 2013-11-11
umetani666 Wrote:It's the consumption that matters most, not the production. I think consumption is a form of expression, but that's an argument I'll put aside for now. At any rate, the people making the artwork are always a minority. On the other hand, the number of people appreciating the kind of artwork we're talking about varies greatly between cultures. You don't find people casually flipping through art books of H.R. Giger or Zdzislaw Beksinski while on the train in the West. In contrast, it's almost impossible to ride a train in Japan without someone in your car reading a violent and/or sexual manga. In terms of prevalence of consumption in society, only Western cinema comes close, but even then such films are controversial and the number of titles are minuscule when compared to Japanese manga.vileru Wrote:To refer back to Tzadeck's point about generalizations, of course there are exceptions.my point was that these are not exceptions. expressing dark or violent emotions through art is a common practice in the west as well. you just need to take a look at any art history book and realize that almost all masters have at least one disturbing work.
i would argue that japanese art is much less violent than, say, european. actually, outside of yoshitoshi and some other individual works, i can't remember much examples of violent art.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - umetani666 - 2013-11-12
of course consumption is a form of expression, but, correct me if i'm wrong, bourdain's original thesis was about artistic expression.
also, you can't compare art books and comics, because in most cases they target different audience. you should compare violent/erotic manga with mainstream western equivalents, like comics by garth ennis or alan moore.
my main problem with bourdain's conclusion is simple: expressing violent emotions through art is a common practice in all cultures. it's not unique to japan.
what is unique about japan aesthetics, though, is its connection with nature. most common motifs in japanese art (be it woodblocks, painting, literature, theatre, etc) are landscapes and seasonal changes. most common feeling is that of transiency of things, a melancholy reflection. that's the norm.
weird artists like kuniyoshi, jakuchu and soga shokaku are actually in vast minority.
manga with extremely violent and erotic content is a direct descendant of taisho era ero-guro movement(and often uses 1930's period iconography), which was in turn heavily influenced by french surrealism and weimar aesthetics.
i mean, the most important and influential 'weird' cultural movement of 20th century was surrealism. why are we even talking about 'weird japan'?
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - Ampharos64 - 2013-11-12
If he thinks fetishism in Japanese pornography steers away from violence, then he's probably fortunate not to have heard of that involving animal cruelty. Not that I mean to imply this is mainstream in any way, or at all unique to Japan (I know little about it in any case, and do not wish to know more).
The program was even less informative than I'd have hoped, and would only serve to reinforce stereotypes about Japan. It may have been meant to focus on more obscure subcultures, but still managed to make it look as though they were mainstream. Don't think most of us would be proud if a Japanese person called us オタク, even. Also kind of wonder what's up with the anime I watch, if it's meant to be all violent and sexual, I thought it was all about people hanging around and having totally boring and everyday conversations. ; ) And was it me or did the woman seeing the tentacle images actually look disapproving? At least, that was how my Japanese teacher always used to look if one of the class did something she considered inappropriate. If he must discuss that in relation to Japan, he could at least look at the history, mention 蛸と海女 etc.
After that comment here, I'll never be able to look at the tea ceremony the same way again, though, haha. Well, as a British citizen, being served tea very very slowly does sound pretty sadistic.
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - ktcgx - 2013-11-13
Ampharos64 Wrote:And was it me or did the woman seeing the tentacle images actually look disapproving? At least, that was how my Japanese teacher always used to look if one of the class did something she considered inappropriate. If he must discuss that in relation to Japan, he could at least look at the history, mention 蛸と海女 etc.Believe me, whatever she thought (and I believe she probably was highly disapproving), she would have considered it a far worse thing to have made her guest feel uncomfortable in her establishment... Although, considering her age, and the reputation of foreigners here, she could have just been concerned by her restaurant being invaded by foreigners wanting to look at tentacle porn...
Anthony Bourdain Parts Unknown: 東京 - qwertyytrewq - 2013-11-15
Ampharos64 Wrote:If he thinks fetishism in Japanese pornography steers away from violence, then he's probably fortunate not to have heard of that involving animal cruelty. Not that I mean to imply this is mainstream in any way, or at all unique to Japan (I know little about it in any case, and do not wish to know more).Asians in general need to treat animals better: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=8825
Japan needs to stop using real living animals in their JAV.
When Africans hunt for Ivory, at least they're doing it for the money and feed their family. The cash-rich Chinese bourgeoisie whose demand actually funds it, have no excuse. Of course, then there's the bullshit tiger penis medicine, bear biling, live skinning and other unthinkable things. To be fair, Western demand for clothes may explain some of it.
Also South Korea and the killing of live animals in movies (Old Boy, The Isle etc). As for dogs, well I guess that's subjective.
India... well they worship cows. I don't remember any news reports of cruel animal treatment. Then again, they necessarily bathe in and drink from rivers filled with corpses (old news) and rape women (new news) so I don't blame the media for ignoring the animal cruelty aspect of India (if any).
How do other Asian countries treat animals?