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J-J cards - egoplant - 2013-12-18
Just wondering what people's experience was with switching to J-J definitions. When did you do it? Did it stop you from adding a lot of new words? How did you deal with words you didn't know in the definitions? Anything else you can think of would be helpful, because I'm kind of scared of screwing up my progress (10,000+ vocab cards).
J-J cards - drdunlap - 2013-12-18
I'd suggest putting both the English word(s) and Japanese definition in every card. Maybe even from day 1. One day they'll make sense and at that time they will be extremely useful. Having the English too won't hurt but the Japanese definition will give you insight into the usage of that word in a Japanese way. Which is presumably what you're after. Having the English speeds up reviews too. At least for me, anyway. ヽ(´ー｀)ノ
Also, if you already know 10,000+ words I'd assume you're in pretty good shape to understand most definitions anyway!
J-J cards - jordan3311 - 2013-12-18
I just started this 2 days ago it is kinda rough but we just have to push through. Sometimes I don't understand everything in the definitions but that's ok as long as I get a basic understanding. I would recommend reading and staying immersed while doing this because it can get tough when you don't fully understand.I would get a few thousand J-E sentences in under your belt first.
J-J cards - afterglowefx - 2013-12-18
The problem for me with J-J cards is that at anything below advanced Japanese it's going to be maddeningly difficult to extract nuance from any sort of definition you actually understand. You risk confusing huge numbers of synonyms with overly broad, watered-down definitions. If you don't water down your definitions, you'll have a maddening time just trying to work out what the definition means, let alone what it's supposed to define.
I'm reaching a level where I could start to deal in J-J cards, but for me I'd rather just see words in context--I mine sentences like mad and see how the word is actually used. I run two decks (well three including RTK): one is Core, the other is a sentence deck with 3-5 sentences for every problem word in my vocab deck, plus expressions/grammar. If I fail a mature card it gets a couple sentences in the sentence deck.
Doing it that way ensures that I can understand the nuance between words like 帰る and 戻る while simultaneously seeing them in context, which is probably the more important of the two--especially with words that are less concrete.
J-J cards - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-12-18
I don't believe in the whole 'monolingual is better' theory. A definition is a definition, it really doesn't matter what language it's in.
I put Japanese definitions on the back side for terms that are very hard to translate and culturally embedded where the Japanese definition is decidedly superior, and for terms where the J-E dictionary simply doesn't have a definition.
JJ dictionary entries are hard to read at first, even with 10k vocabulary. They are terse, stiff, and if you're learning a relatively common word they often define that word with obscure synonyms or complex explanations. It helps to read some definitions for words that you already know or that are easy to understand for other reasons (because they are simple concrete nouns or the like). There's a lot of common patterns and abbreviations in the way 国語 entries are written.
If you're reading native materials much, try looking words up in 国語 first and then in 和英 for a bit for practice perhaps. It doesn't hurt either to put both definitions on the back side of cards for difficult terms where the 国語 entry is probably superior but you have trouble understanding it -- later on you may find it easier to understand.
J-J cards - dtcamero - 2013-12-18
ya the push to work with j-j cards ASAP is a bit misguided. I woudn't say it will mess up one's progress, but it makes things a good bit more difficult. I did it after my first 1,000 anki cards, and it was pretty tough. kokugo dictionaries use a lot of vocab that I hadn't seen before at that point.
The main benefit I think is the ability to just work in japanese, with no english. everyone may not agree but I was happy to get rid of english as soon as possible in my japanese study. it just felt good. seeing english in my cards after that point just felt amateurish and icky.
ya english defs are probably more efficient, sure. but studying from materials with english in it feels weabooish
if you have 10,000 words you could have transitioned to J-J cards 5,000 words ago without much difficulty.
J-J cards - Aspiring - 2013-12-19
I agree with drdunlap and dtcamero, 10k should be fine.
I don't think progress will be lost.
If necessary, slowly transition into monolingual with drdunlap's and SomeCallMeChris's suggestions.
J-J cards - ryuudou - 2013-12-19
J-J has the benefit of helping you think in Japanese. I'm not sure why you're all against it. 1k is too soon, 10k is too long (referring to sentences not vocab).
J-J cards - afterglowefx - 2013-12-19
All you need to think in Japanese is Japanese exposure. I guess if you're aching for more exposure you can try to slug it out in all Japanese. I'd rather spend that time reading more sentences, seeing the word in context, and getting more familiar with it in a working environment (which seems far more useful than a definition to me). J-J certainly won't hurt, I just don't know about the efficacy of the whole thing.
J-J cards - Stian - 2013-12-19
I found a gradual transition from J-E to J-J more helpful. Basically, first try to look up a word in a kokugo dictionary and if it's all greek to you, just find a J-E definition. After only a few months, I was able to add >95% J-J and it saved me a lot of frustration. I did, however, give up Ankiing at about 6000 cards, because I felt it started to become more time consuming than beneficial...
@dtcamero, ...but didn't you use Core10k?
J-J cards - Aikynaro - 2013-12-19
Is there a super easy way to get Japanese definitions for everything in a passage? At the moment I use Translation Aggregator while I'm making cards and it fetches definitions for every word in recognises that I copy to the clipboard (using WWWJDIC, I think). If there was something as easy as that to get J-J definitions, I'd happily add them to my cards.
Otherwise, too much effort. I figure I'll get the nuance by seeing the same things in context a million times anyway - but if I can get it easily I might as well.
J-J cards - Aspiring - 2013-12-19
^Combining firefox, revtk's rikaichan, and some dictionary bookmarklets comes close to automation (disregarding the copy/paste action).
"Translations in your best language are transparent windows onto the semantic units that new word forms refer to. A bilingual person isn’t two monolinguals in one head, the two languages interact automatically the instant you begin learning an additional language, extending a network that refers to the same semantic knowledge and relies on the same general language parsing abilities. [...]" (darkjapanese)
Eventually J-J is just as efficient as J-E, not better or worse.
One possible benefit of J-J dictionaries is that they provide a few new terms, which could be favorable, depending on your level.
J-J cards - jordan3311 - 2013-12-19
@Stian
I feel like I want to do this right now J-J sentences are making me pull my hair out. Can you explain how you get through it.
J-J cards - dtcamero - 2013-12-19
c'mon it was bad enough when nestor was here. we can't keep quoting from his/her website like some kind of reputable source, now that... it... has graciously fled this forum.
@stian
I did core10k, but I studied about 1500 vanilla sentences, and 4000 subs2srs cards first.
J-J cards - Aspiring - 2013-12-19
Lol. Well, that particular quote seemed appropriate. :p
J-J cards - Stian - 2013-12-19
jordan3311 Wrote:@StianThis series of articles describe the most common "dictionary words" that are a bit hard to master.
I feel like I want to do this right now J-J sentences are making me pull my hair out. Can you explain how you get through it.
http://japaneselevelup.com/achieving-dictionary-zen-1-increased-awareness/
As with anything, practice makes perfect. Extensive reading would also help you out here.
J-J cards - jordan3311 - 2013-12-19
@dtcamero
When did you start the J-J sentences before or after the 1500 sentences and 4000 subs2srs?
J-J cards - drdunlap - 2013-12-19
Aspiring Wrote:"A bilingual person isn’t two monolinguals in one head, the two languages interact automatically the instant you begin learning an additional language, extending a network that refers to the same semantic knowledge and relies on the same general language parsing abilities. [...]" (darkjapanese)I often feel like two monolinguals in one head. (´・ω・｀)
Eventually J-J is just as efficient as J-E, not better or worse.
One possible benefit of J-J dictionaries is that they provide a few new terms, which could be favorable, depending on your level.
Maybe that's my secret to success!? [[unfounded crazytalk. please ignore.]]
Although I don't see any reason to exclude English from Anki cards. 8)
English in anki cards is like Heisig keywords to me. Eventually they fall away and I don't rely on them anymore but knowing or remembering them won't hurt me.
Finer shades of nuance usually aren't written in the dictionary anyhow.
But! The Japanese definitions have helped me more times than I can count. It's also fun to go back and look through definitions of common words now to get a more Japanese feel for them. A lot of it simply reinforces what I've come to feel intuitively anyway but I am occasionally (un?)pleasantly surprised! And this is why I slap 'em in anyway.
J-J cards - dtcamero - 2013-12-22
jordan3311 Wrote:@dtcameroI started entering all my definitions in J-J around 1000-1500 cards in...
When did you start the J-J sentences before or after the 1500 sentences and 4000 subs2srs?
so by order of entry, here is my anki history:
rtk 1 (march 2010)
1500 vanilla cards (last 300 or so j-j)
4000 subs2srs (taken from akira and lucky star)
rtk3
core6k
core10k
kanzen master grammar N1,N2 (500ish cards... last card added Nov 2014)
got my anki on pretty good there for a hot minute... put the stuff in my head and now I'm done adding. Within a month the daily reviews will become a nominal figure.
I'm just reading from here on out, minimum 10 pages a day.
J-J cards - Daichi - 2013-12-22
I never transitioned completely to J-J sentences, but I have a small number of Japanese definitions for my sentence-vocab words. With EPWing and JGlossator it's super easy to look up a Japanese definition. If I completely understand it, I might as well add it in.
These range from super simple.
校門:学校の門。
To a bit more descriptive.
下校:授業などを終えて、自動や生徒が学校から家へ帰ること。
If a definition has only one word I don't know, I might consider learning that one word, but anything more complex I probably going to stick to English for now. Maybe this will change eventually, but for now it works for me.
J-J cards - NightSky - 2013-12-23
I've never bothered with J-J because I don't think its any faster or any better than just using English. If you are reading / watching enough Japanese you will pick up any other nuance that way, I don't think the extra J exposure with anki cards makes much difference, except for making you need more time. Which is bad, Anki cards should be blasted through as fast as possible..
J-J cards - ryuudou - 2013-12-23
NightSky Wrote:I've never bothered with J-J because I don't think its any faster or any better than just using English. If you are reading / watching enough Japanese you will pick up any other nuance that way, I don't think the extra J exposure with anki cards makes much difference, except for making you need more time. Which is bad, Anki cards should be blasted through as fast as possible..It's not necessarily about picking up nuance. Using Japanese to describe Japanese just has a profound effect.
J-J cards - drdunlap - 2013-12-23
Daichi Wrote:下校:授業などを終えて、自動や生徒が学校から家へ帰ること。Sorry, can't help myself...
自動→児童!!
automatic childrensヽ(´ー｀)ノ
J-J cards - Aikynaro - 2013-12-23
ryuudou Wrote:... what kind of profound effect?NightSky Wrote:I've never bothered with J-J because I don't think its any faster or any better than just using English. If you are reading / watching enough Japanese you will pick up any other nuance that way, I don't think the extra J exposure with anki cards makes much difference, except for making you need more time. Which is bad, Anki cards should be blasted through as fast as possible..It's not necessarily about picking up nuance. Using Japanese to describe Japanese just has a profound effect.
J-J cards - yudantaiteki - 2013-12-23
I'd like to know that too; I've never seen any particular benefit from using J-J over J-E in most cases. I still use J-E sometimes.