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I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Printable Version

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I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - KanjiMood - 2013-10-24

If there was an award for this category, I would probably get it. I've done a million kanji reviews, and my vocab is up to 2000 or so, and it's easy as hell to learn new vocab by just coming across it. I can converse basic sentences and pick out words in speech, read short clauses quickly, write stuff down kana/kanji, know names and locations in kanji and so on. I tried not to neglect any aspect.. So yep, it's time to go to the next stage and tackle more complex stuff and conjugating stuff (not sure why I waited this long).

To be honest, I'm really scared of that ru-verb/u-verb and na-adj i-adj stuff. I look at it on that cheat sheet I got from nihonshock.com and tae-kim and it looks like crap to me. And I mix up particles all the time trying to guess the right one. How exactly do I digest that stuff? I mean I don't see a word and say "oh yeah, that's a ru-verb, you just change that to get this tense" and "oh yeah, that's the iku exception which becomes bla bla". etc. Since this is my first time through a foreign language, its all rather new, so how do I get to that stage? I'm doing tae-kim anki at the moment but it only includes a certain number of verbs, and there's a million out there and each one seems to be different.

I guess you can say it comes with experience, and that's definitely been true for me in my Japanese journey so far, but if there's a good way to learn these rules I would be interested in hearing about it, otherwise I'll just plough on ahead Tongue

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - KanjiMood - 2013-10-24

Sorry, this was meant for the other forum (language, grammar etc). If a mod can move it, that would be great! Smile

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Vempele - 2013-10-24

There are 11 basic forms (nonpast, negative, past, -て, command, volitional, conditional, passive, potential, -i, causative) for 11* verb types (す,ぶ,む,つ,1る,5る,special-る (e.g.くださる),ぐ,く,ぬ,う) plus two irregular verbs, plus a few other irregularities (ある->ない, ます->ません, ません->ませんでした, 行く->行った, 行って). Consider just memorizing them all. Definitely memorize all the endings (because they carry the meaning) and all the special forms (here and here).

Read a lot. Whenever you encounter a new verb in a conjugated form, try to guess its type. The conjugations will become second nature.

*obviously, many of the types share various patterns with various other types. You don't learn the patters by learning the rules that generate** them, you learn them by getting used to them.

**technically the patterns generate the rules, not the other way around.

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Haych - 2013-10-24

Make a grammar deck in anki. A grammar understanding is something you can memorize and forget, just like any other fact. However, grammar can be tricky, because sometimes it is hard to know what is crucial and what isn't, and it can be hard to come up with a good question prompt. So off the start, you should probably go minimal. What I did is put something kind of open-ended on the front, then I have to just recall all that I can about the topic. You can SRS sort of general-understanding stuff like that.

But as a beginner, you just want the basics. So make cards like front: "past tense rules". Tae kim has some good charts and summary sections that you can just take a screenshot of, and put on the back of the card. Then you have to recall all the possible endings for verbs. It's kinda hard to memorize all of those things at once, but I figure that's exactly how it works in the real world so might as well.

If there gets to be an overwhelming number of stuff on my cards, I usually figure that out by the time I'm reviewing. In which case, I'll just split em up in as logical a way as I can think of.

Oh and speaking of overwhelming, you probably shouldn't SRS the stuff in those links that Vempele sent. You need to build up an understanding first, before really big-picture stuff like that is digestible.

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Northern_Lord - 2013-10-24

I recommend you start doing some integrated course to Japanese grammar, for example Genki 1 and 2 or Colloquial Japanese. Supply by reading whatever Japanese materials you can think of that might fit you. I used to work my way through song lyrics and the likes. Newspapers.. etc. Also I think it really helpful to supply with Japanese shows, like J-drama or anime or something.
For a complete starter when it comes to grammar I'd like to recommend http://www.nihongoresources.com. It's way much better than Tae Kim for the very beginner. It's way more precise and detailed.
In my opinion Tae Kim can only give you an overview at best in it's current state. I used it a lot for reference before but it's not very usefull in learning a difficult grammatical construction as it doesn't teach you much about how to use it other than a few example sentences.

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Vempele - 2013-10-24

Haych Wrote:Oh and speaking of overwhelming, you probably shouldn't SRS the stuff in those links that Vempele sent. You need to build up an understanding first, before really big-picture stuff like that is digestible.
...It's what I did (except for the part about drilling the exact forms of the basic conjugations; I also didn't find out about the Nihongoresources grammar book until months later). How could a few dozen verb forms (most of which have one-sentence definitions - not enough to fully understand them, of course, but the point is recognition) possibly be overwhelming after over 2000 kanji and 2000 words?

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Haych - 2013-10-24

Vempele Wrote:
Haych Wrote:Oh and speaking of overwhelming, you probably shouldn't SRS the stuff in those links that Vempele sent. You need to build up an understanding first, before really big-picture stuff like that is digestible.
...It's what I did (except for the part about drilling the exact forms of the basic conjugations; I also didn't find out about the Nihongoresources grammar book until months later). How could a few dozen verb forms (most of which have one-sentence definitions - not enough to fully understand them, of course, but the point is recognition) possibly be overwhelming after over 2000 kanji and 2000 words?
Yeah I agree grammar stuff is a small memorization task compared to the rest of the language, and I'd say if you're really set on doing it like that, go ahead. But they just look too wikipedia-esque to me and I still don't know my 連体形 from my 連用形.

edit: deleted the rest because yolo

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - ktcgx - 2013-10-24

The verb conjugations confused me a bit too until I found a grammar book that laid them out in a table (the go-dan ones, that is...)

Basically, you just change the last vowel sound depending on the conjugation:

eg, nomimasu/ nomu

nom-A negative
nom-E potential (can do form)
nom-I masu form
nom-O volitional (let's do ~)
nom-U dictionary/plain form

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-10-24

just see it get used. don't memoriez it. ie do song lyrics with rikai-chan.

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Yatagarasu - 2013-10-24

Read a lot, check out the grammar point if you don't understand something, keep reading, if you forget something you review it, repeat.

This is what I did with English (and I'm currently doing with Japanese) and it worked well for me. Production came by itself after tons of recognition.

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - KanjiMood - 2013-10-25

Thanks for the tips everyone, invaluable stuff.

I know it seems like small potatoes after 2000 words and the readings of a 100 or so random Japanese famous people including emperors etc, but it's a bit different when you don't actually understand what you're SRSing (and I'm wary of SRSing random notes after experiences in the past). I had completely forgotten about Genki, I'll try that first to ease me into it, then bite the bullet and lock myself in a room with that grammar book until something clicks! It looks a bit better than Tae Kim.

I'll definitely keep reading though, that'll be the key..

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - NightSky - 2013-10-25

Early stages for grammar you just need as much exposure as possible, as well as to keep re-reading the grammar guides over and over until they really sink in. I read tae kim countless times over the years and it was helpful. Once you get to around N2 level then grammar gets easier, because you can just drill all the example sentences from JGram or Kanzen Master and then read as much as possible to get used to them.

Early days its hard and you just have to battle through I think. Core is great for vocabulary but as you are discovering almost useless for grammar. I'd just try and find as many explanatory sources as possible and read them as much as possible. The more different angles and explanations you can find, the better it is and the easier it becomes.

Imabi has tons of articles too and is probably worth a read through.

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - KanjiMood - 2013-10-25

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense. Yeah, I find every time I read through Tae Kim I discover something new! It's all linked somehow and each part unlocks more parts..

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Marble101 - 2013-10-25

What I do (for any language be it Spanish or Japanese) is to take it a tense at a time. Learn all of the present-tense -masu (polite) forms once. Create a table (writing by hand seems to stick the best) of all the conjugations and simply go through your life aware of these. Every time you hear one of these conjugations, figure out why the verb was conjugated this way and then come up with your own sentences (3-6) with a similar sentence structure that use the same conjugation.

Once you feel that you have a handle on one conjugation, more down the list. This worked for me in Spanish, a language with mountains of conjugations. The trick is to take it slowly and to remember to always ask yourself when you hear a verb "Why was it conjugated that way? Would I do it that way too?"

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - Artgor - 2013-10-25

I learn conjugations using this android app: https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=conjugation.japanese

It's a simple app which gives you a possibility to practice the 10 conjugations: you pick the conjugation to practice, the word is shown and you answer by choosing one of the four variants.

For me this is faster and more effective than usual SRS or just exposure.

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - KanjiMood - 2013-10-26

Good tip, Marble101, I'll try that also.

And that software looks awesome, Artgor. I was actually thinking awhile ago an app like that MUST have been made. Glad to see it has!

I am the ultimate beginner - now time for conjugation - undead_saif - 2013-10-26

Since I started grammar with Tae Kim's guide, the way I think when I want to conjugate or break down a conjugation is to return to the dictionary form, remember the conjugation rule, then conjugate. I used TK close deleted deck, in which the conjugation part is closed. It was helpful.

An important thing to take into consideration is the "this sounds right" thing. If you always read and hear correct conjugations, you'll get a feeling when you produce something whether it's correct or not. For example 「面白ない」 or 「学生かった」 will not sound right. The point here is to avoid making mistakes at this stage, or otherwise bad habits can develop.