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+--- Thread: I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? (/thread-11268.html)
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - uisukii - 2013-10-24
![[Image: fryII.jpg]](http://www.renegademothering.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/fryII.jpg)
Someone discovers ice-cream for the first time in their life. They become so enthralled with it that they start to explain to others of it's superior taste; that they cannot possibly see how others can even enjoy other foods any more. You could say that their actions might be a little naive, that they are caught up in the moment; that it will soon fade, etc. ...but why does their sudden incredulity mean that because you may prefer steak, have to be something which personally offends you?
Is it still possible for people these days to say "hey, I like ice-cream but I prefer steak. Each to their own, right? Isn't food awesome like that?"
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - NightSky - 2013-10-24
uisukii please don't start taking this thread down another boring theoretical philosophical path like the Benny 3 month thread...
Using the word "offended" isn't important. The point was that someone who doesn't know any Japanese making statements that imply the rest of us don't know what we are doing is of course going to frustrate / anger / irritate people and likely cause a response (seen by how fast this thread is growing).
adam_invers Wrote:In response to a part of Nightsky's first post where he mentions that using Heisig's method and being a beginner means that the learner doesn't really have any idea whether the system is helping to learn the language. As a beginner who hasn't even touched the Kanji part of learning yet, I strongly disagree.You can learn Kana in 1 day with just about any method. I just bought a cheap book with them that had paper to write them over and over, and I did that. Then if you use study materials that use Kana (like Genki etc) you are going to *constantly* see them reinforced anyway. Learning Kana is not difficult nor should be considered any sort of barrier to the Japanese language.
...
That task alone immediately teaches someone how to read any number of the 50,000+ kanji as long as there is furigana involved. Basically, if someone just spent a day learning Remembering the Kana and the rest of the kana characters by applying Heisig's method, then they could feasibly read anything in the language after just one day. So it's reasonable to assume that the method in Remembering the Kanji would be similar, even though Book 1 acts as a standalone method for mostly just learning the writing for Kanji, rather than the reading. But in Book 2 it touches more on the reading of the onyomi.
As someone else already pointed out, RTK "followers" have a horrible tendency to be absolute beginners who don't know any Japanese, who spend months and months on RTK only to eventually disappear forever once they actually find out how hard the Japanese language itself is. Kanji is relatively EASY. Kanji only becomes this impossible thing once you tell yourself it is. Which, sadly, most people pushing RTK here do say.
Strangely this phenomenon doesn't exist in Chinese. I told my Chinese teacher all about the Heisig system and she thought it was crazy and had never heard of any student of Chinese using it. I wonder why.
This forum is the most "pro" Heisig forum there is (since it was originally built around it) so there are plenty of success stories here too. What is interesting is a lot of those who reach a very high level tend to say "meh" about the importance of RTK, since they realise later that in the very long run there are far tougher things than Kanji one has to learn.
For what its worth I think Heisig is very useful if someone really wants to learn to write by hand. For me I only have X many hours available to study Japanese, so I'm happy forgetting about writing by hand until I consider myself to have fully "mastered" everything else, as its not important to me. Some time down the road I'll probably invest some time into Heisig to learn to write all the characters properly, which should be very fast since I "know" all of them already.
But doing it for months and months up front and then having to keep up with the writing reviews forever? If writing isn't extremely important to you (which RTK followers will later *of course* say it IS very important) then its a colossal waste of time.
時 is a fine example. Yeah its an awkward shape and not easy to remember for someone brand new to the language. But you know what? You will see this EVERYWHERE as you keep studying the Japanese LANGUAGE (not KANJI) and you will just remember it. You will often see it is 3時 or whatever, so it will be pretty obvious what it means anyway and so gets constantly reinforced through natural study. Same with all the characters that are introduced early. Their complexity doesn't really matter, if you keep seeing them enough times, you will just know how to read them and will be doing this along side your actual Japanese study. So replace 4-6 months for RTK and that person if they studied hard will be able to read and more importantly understand a fair bit of Japanese, which a Kanji obsessed person will not be able to.
I think the OP is more interested in Kanji than the Japanese language, which in itself is no problem. For writing Kanji RTK is a very good system, but I still don't see any necessity or real benefits when it comes to learning JAPANESE.
(sorry for random capitals, Japanese is hard and I want that more emphasised and more people to realise it. Kanji is not hard, relatively)
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - dizmox - 2013-10-24
When I was going through Genki I I figured the 10 kanji for each lesson weren't sufficient, so I just memorized how to write every word that came up in the vocabulary lists. Learnt about 700+ that way, looking up the stroke orders online. Kinda forgot a lot though since I didn't know about Anki then.
Looking back that may have been a better approach than Heisig for me, since I hadn't really learnt how to write compounds after that (just recognise them - I didn't remember which kanji went with which compound) so I had to go back to that sort of practice anyway.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - Xanpakuto - 2013-10-24
dizmox Wrote:When I was going through Genki I I figured the 10 kanji for each lesson weren't sufficient, so I just memorized how to write every word that came up in the vocabulary lists. Learnt about 700+ that way, looking up the stroke orders online. Kinda forgot a lot though since I didn't know about Anki then.That's what I'm doing now, but instead I grab vocabulary from native sources now. However, I barely need to look up the stroke orders anymore. I'm not even sure if I want to finish Hesig anymore, I already know how to write almost all of the kanji. I might as well drop it.
Looking back that may have been a better approach than Heisig for me, since I hadn't really learnt how to write compounds after that (just recognise them - I didn't remember which kanji went with which compound) so I had to go back to that sort of practice anyway.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - adam_invers - 2013-10-24
(Super long post, so sorry in advance. Also, I appreciate your post as there was a lot of good information in it that will help me as I progress in Japanese.)
I agree that kana isn't really a barrier. I was just using Heisig's method in Remembering the Kana as a point of reference when I mentioned that the overall Heisig method is a good and practical approach when learning Japanese even at the most introductory of stages.
Even a beginner using the Heisig method will see that the system is helping them learn Japanese (alongside a valuable learning tool), as in a day or even less they'll be able to essentially read the entire language with furigana without having to use rote memorization techniques and without having to repeatedly write the characters out (which isn't a bad approach because people use it all the time).
Also, a beginner has to start somewhere, and those followers of the Heisig method who eventually disappear off the face of the earth isn't necessarily a result of having used Heisig's method. I'd personally say that it's the result of them maybe not having the motivation or willingness to continue their study, as I can only imagine how unwilling they'd be to even begin the process of learning Japanese in the first place if the only way to learn each kanji was through rote memorization and through repeatedly writing it. As that appears to be one of the reasons why people choose RTK.
For me, I've studied language in a classroom setting and through rote memorization, and comparing that to my experience with self-study and Heisig's method in Remembering the Kana, I prefer Heisig's method. But then again that's a personal preference, too.
RTK is just another resource that potentially makes learning Japanese a little bit easier and fun, at least one particular aspect, which is more or less all RTK book 1 can claim to do.
In response to taking Chinese classes and students of Chinese using the Heisig method, the RTK system promotes self-study, not study in a classroom setting. Heisig mentions how you won't find a language teacher using his books, and specifically divorces his method from the classroom setting, saying that the two conflict with one another. So it isn't surprising that a language teacher would find a method of self-study crazy for a student in a classroom. Heisig even acknowledges that point in his book.
Personally, I love the Japanese language and enjoy writing it. I really want to learn how to write kanji. Having already learned hirigana and some katakana through Remembering the Kana, I've found that Heisig's method works for me so far as I'm easily able to recall a particular character from the method. I've learned some vocabulary from watching a lot of Japanese TV (as primarily my time so far has been spent listening to the language rather than studying), and I've found that I'm able to write out in hiragana some of what I'm hearing not even after a month of dedicated listening. So if I keep this up, I can only imagine how my writing skills will grow when I begin learning kanji and I become more advanced in listening to Japanese.
Perhaps one of the best parts of Heisig's method is the learning aid that people who use it will benefit from (even though mnemonics as a learning tool can be learned elsewhere on its own) because the method in itself is a valuable learning tool that can help with remembering vocabulary, and because the method can be applied to many aspects of trying to remember and to recall something. That part alone is part of why I consider Heisig's method to be beneficial to learning Japanese.
An example of this is a blog that someone wrote on how to learn the Japanese language, where I read about a guy who watched a lot of Japanese anime and it inspired him to learn the language. So he used a series of methods, including Heisig's method, and he was able to take the aspect of mnemonic devices/stories from RTK and apply it to his researched list of the most frequently used words in anime. And for each of those words he applied a story that was able to help him understand what he was hearing, and according to him his results were good.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - uisukii - 2013-10-24
internal 500 error ate the post.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - quark - 2013-10-25
uisukii Wrote:Ooh, wow, a meme!It's not a matter of people not handling that someone likes something different than them.
It's a matter of a complete beginner acting like he knows better than people who have been studying for years. That he knows better than NATIVE SPEAKERS because he worked through 180 frames of RTK. 180 frames is not that far into the book. Even I managed to pass the 180 mark, and I quit using RTK pretty quick.
I get that he's excited and enthusiastic that he's found a method that works for him, and that's great. I felt that way about Heisig initially too. But let's put it this way: I think learning kanji through context and frequency order is the most logical method. If I made a thread here saying that I feel sorry for people who use RTK as it's illogical and stupid, I shouldn't be too surprised when people get annoyed with me. Especially if I was making that post as a complete beginner.
Oh, and I think that Stephen Fry quote is full of crap.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - KanjiCrosser - 2013-10-25
DrJones Wrote:The sad part, is that practically every learning resource for japanese is in english. English is the WORST possible bridge to study japanese (in fact, the user of any other language will have an easier time learning Japanese than them), so it's not just that japanese don't know how to teach their language, but we also choose to learn it through the worst possible source.Slightly off topic, but I'm curious as to how English is the worst bridge language to learning Japanese. Wouldn't any Indo-European language be no different as a bridge, or are there benefits to using such a language over English? I should note that I don't speak any other languages fluently except for English, as an explanation for my confusion.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - Yatagarasu - 2013-10-25
KanjiCrosser Wrote:As a native Spanish speaker I'd say Spanish has it easier than English regarding pronunciation since it's quite similar to Japanese, but as far as language materials go English has a much wider array of choices and is generally the better option.DrJones Wrote:The sad part, is that practically every learning resource for japanese is in english. English is the WORST possible bridge to study japanese (in fact, the user of any other language will have an easier time learning Japanese than them), so it's not just that japanese don't know how to teach their language, but we also choose to learn it through the worst possible source.Slightly off topic, but I'm curious as to how English is the worst bridge language to learning Japanese. Wouldn't any Indo-European language be no different as a bridge, or are there benefits to using such a language over English? I should note that I don't speak any other languages fluently except for English, as an explanation for my confusion.
I suppose Chinese and Korean would be even better but I don't speak any of those languages yet.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - JunePin - 2013-10-25
Some of the native Spanish speaking people I've known who were learning Japanese had trouble with j/y sounds. I assume from learning first with romaji, they would mix them up in Japanese when speaking. Also their pronunciation wasn't really any better than any other foreigner, good but still accented.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - NightSky - 2013-10-25
dizmox Wrote:When I was going through Genki I I figured the 10 kanji for each lesson weren't sufficient, so I just memorized how to write every word that came up in the vocabulary lists. Learnt about 700+ that way, looking up the stroke orders online. Kinda forgot a lot though since I didn't know about Anki then.Yes this is pretty much exactly what I would recommend a person to do, its been my approach and I'm extremely happy with my Kanji reading ability.
Looking back that may have been a better approach than Heisig for me, since I hadn't really learnt how to write compounds after that (just recognise them - I didn't remember which kanji went with which compound) so I had to go back to that sort of practice anyway.
Actually I just checked the MLC Japanese Kanji level check page - the first time I ever went to that I think I scored 700. This time I knew all of them except 謄本, 坪数, and 甲乙. So I'm pretty comfortable saying not bothering with Heisig or studying Kanji individually has done me no harm at all.
adam_invers Wrote:Even a beginner using the Heisig method will see that the system is helping them learn Japanese (alongside a valuable learning tool), as in a day or even less they'll be able to essentially read the entire language with furigana without having to use rote memorization techniques and without having to repeatedly write the characters out (which isn't a bad approach because people use it all the time).I'm not sure if I understand your point or not, or if I just plain disagree with it. You could NOT use the Heisig method, learning Hiragana in a few hours and then be "essentially able to read the entire language with Furigana", and you did this WITH using boring rote techniques. Your Kana example is plain bad because you absolutely definitely don't need Heisig to do it, you can learn it in hours with almost any method.
Quote:So it isn't surprising that a language teacher would find a method of self-study crazy for a student in a classroom. Heisig even acknowledges that point in his book.To be fair I didn't really explain myself well here, and in fairness even Japanese teachers probably don't really know anything about Heisig either so it wasn't a useful statement anyway. I was just trying to explain how the Heisig and bizarre Kanji obsession seems far more intense amongst learners of Japanese than Chinese, for some strange reason. At least in my experience of studying both.
I know it basically can't be used in a classroom and thats not something I'd ever advocate. Actually I don't really think Kanji themselves should ever be studied in a classroom, the best things to be doing in a classroom are speaking and getting feedback and corrections, as well as explanations on new grammar and such. Vocabulary and Kanji is best drilled at home.
Quote:Personally, I love the Japanese language and enjoy writing it. I really want to learn how to write kanjiGood for you, then Heisig is perfectly worthwhile and I wouldn't stop you from doing it. Heisig however is usually and very unfortunately aimed at the total beginner, advising them to learn everything up front "because you will have to do it eventually anyway". For the total beginner I'd tell them not to bother writing anything by hand and to just study Japanese as much as possible. Writing Kanji by hand isn't really learning Japanese, I think of it as a separate skill.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - Yatagarasu - 2013-10-25
JunePin Wrote:Some of the native Spanish speaking people I've known who were learning Japanese had trouble with j/y sounds. I assume from learning first with romaji, they would mix them up in Japanese when speaking. Also their pronunciation wasn't really any better than any other foreigner, good but still accented.That's kind of strange, the Spanish Y sound sort of varies according to the country but everyone knows the "correct" way of pronouncing it in a neutral Spanish so that should be easy. I could see why Japanese J would give some trouble though but I think the tough part would be recognizing the difference between J and SH at native level speed, and even that isn't very difficult with enough exposure.
I agree about the accent though, plus Spanish has quite regular stressing which could make learning pitch accent somewhat harder.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - NightSky - 2013-10-25
Oh and for what its worth I've always thought Spanish and Japanese pronunciation are quite similar and spaniards are able to pronounce Japanese quite well quite quickly.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - dabrowskiowski - 2013-10-25
-Perhaps check out what Robert Dekeyser has to say about breaking down the cognitive load when learning a new language.
-Paul Nation's four strands:
*meaning focused input
*meaning focused output
*focus on forms
*fluency focus
(RTK falls under focus on forms)
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - DrJones - 2013-10-25
KanjiCrosser Wrote:Look at this table: http://www.effectivelanguagelearning.com/language-guide/language-difficultyDrJones Wrote:The sad part, is that practically every learning resource for japanese is in english. English is the WORST possible bridge to study japanese (in fact, the user of any other language will have an easier time learning Japanese than them), so it's not just that japanese don't know how to teach their language, but we also choose to learn it through the worst possible source.Slightly off topic, but I'm curious as to how English is the worst bridge language to learning Japanese. Wouldn't any Indo-European language be no different as a bridge, or are there benefits to using such a language over English? I should note that I don't speak any other languages fluently except for English, as an explanation for my confusion.
English and Japanese are the most dissimilar languages in the world! Notice that japanese isn't just in the hardest category in that table: it has an asterisk that implies that even within that group, is the hardest one by a considerable margin. In other words, if you want to learn japanese and you are not an english native, using english sources to learn it is making the task harder for no reason (other than the lack of sources in your language).
Some people above have mentioned that spanish has a closer pronounciation to japanese than english, but it isn't just that:
- Unlike english, spanish also has different verbs and words that are more apt to use for different social ranks, and more pronouns (with different degrees of politeness).
- Spanish also has "counters" like the japanese. We count cattle in "heads", bread in "bars", and paper in "sheets", just like them.
- Some japanese verb forms have direct translation to spanish, making it obvious when to use one or another. It's also easier to know when it's better to use particles such as は or が, dictionary form vs. dictionary form + こと, or へ and に.
- Japanese words and verbs can have multiple meanings and nuances that are seemingly uncorrelated to an english speaker. There are many spanish verbs and words that share the same multiple meanings and nuances, so you can do a direct translation instead of learning the different meanings separately.
- Some japanese words have an exact and direct translation to commonly used spanish expressions, so they get much better results when using the Heisig approach (also, they have far better options for keywords than Heisig, as their words are closer in meaning).
- Spanish language allows double negatives and their sentences can omit the subject or the verb. When translating Japanese to english, it's easier to reach the opposite meaning of what the japanese sentence said.
These are plenty of advantages that spanish learners of japanese have over english ones. Advantages that are WASTED when a spanish learner uses english books to learn japanese, or a translation/work based of such sources (that's it, the entirety of the available sources). You would never have to worry about using the wrong particle or the wrong keigo in certain situations, for instance, as the translated words inherently move you towards the right choice.
And that doesn't just go for the spanish speakers. As the table above shows, any other language has more things in common with Japanese than english, even Basque (for which there exists an infamous paper that tries to "prove" that both languages have the same origin, based on serendipity).
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - undead_saif - 2013-10-25
I did it the Heisig way. It was a little boring, never painful, and most of the time fun. Heisig has put a systematic way to learn Kanji, which consists of the kanji order, keywords, mnemonics and primitives, nothing is ground breaking or innovative, but as a whole package, as a system to learn kanji, his work is great IMO. It's the real deal, I rarely forget Kanji I've learned long ago, I can make distinctions and write kanji to the smallest of details, something a Japanese teacher told me to be amazing, and learning new kanji is a walk in the park, all because of Heisig's method!
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - undead_saif - 2013-10-25
@NightSky You can't deny that Kanji is not easy and that it can be a big mental wall for learners. RTK isn't about tackling the hardest thing in Japanese, it's a way to separate the writing system from the language and focus on it before getting into the language, and so it saves you the hustle of learning kanji while facing the other difficulties.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - Istrebitel - 2013-10-25
Haych Wrote:Also, there's a bit of a phenomenon around here of people who make it through RTK, give themselves a pat on the back, then just vanish. Usually we can safely assume the worst. I think RTK tends to be a nice structured goal that a lot of people make it through, only to find the rest of the language not so nice. You seemed to imply you don't care too much about learning the language too. I'd advise you to GET serious ASAP. You need to care. This language is hard, and the path to fluency is long and winding.Well, I'm an Orthodox Christian, and so I don't judge. Maybe those people didn't vanish because they gave up on studying japanese, but because they completed what they came for (RTK)? Maybe they, after spending some time learning, and looking back, actually understood they don't really NEED all this? Like, this was a challenge in itself, they wanted to prove to themselves they can do it (you know, especially men, we don't like to admit there's something we can't "beat"). Though I see your point, there is a danger in getting used to someone putting up roadsigns and goals and thersholds for you and patting your back for your success, and when presented with a free environment, where you have to put goals for yourself and continue studying on your own, you can't go on.
Also, when I said I'm not serious, well I guess I'm just being honest. And maybe I used "serious" in a sense of "professional use" countrary to "non-professional" use. After all, I primarily want to study japanese because I am interested in their culture. I also like to speak different languages (comes with being a programmer I guess?), but the two foreign languages I learnt, english and french, both were enforced on me (french by the school I went to, english by my parents). I don't complain, and I see the point of knowing english, since it's the language "of the world", but I disliked French so much (dunno, just the "tone", and the overall "vibe" it gave to me) that I FORGOT IT COMPLETELY! In several years! I knew you lose some of your skills if you don't practice, but I just.... forgot it all. I could speak french fluidly at an age of 14, and could hardly remember some words at the age of 17 (I'm 27 now). And you may think I'm stupid but I don't regret it! I just didn't like the language, I feel like I'm better now that I don't speak it. Now, Japanese, this is the language I absolutely adore. The writing (who wouldn't like to draw actual stuff instead of writing letters? I mean, isn't it more fun?), the grammar (it's like a programming language! every sentence is like "word - defining particle - word - defining particle - word word - defining particle - operator/verb"!), the amount of sound-words (puripuri, patapata....), the amount of wordplay and so on. So yeah, not serious AT ALL. I guess you can call this a hobby. Plus, from a practical standpoint, every book in french is probably availble in english nowadays. But a lot of japanese literature isn't, because japan is so .... secular is the right word I guess? For example, there's a lot of stuff on Japanese mahjong I'd love to read but it's in japanese. There's also manga, anime and live action films available in japanese but no subtitles made (and will be made, probably). Being in love with japanese anime/films since ~5 years old (when Transformers aired in Russia), I guess this is fine for a hobby.
If I have a serious goal, that is to visit japan on vacation on a long trip, and be able to communicate in japanese, read the signs, understand the stuff spoken around, and so on. Since I pretty much was everywhere I wanted to be in the world (parents took me around when I was young), Japan is like THE place I still want to visit. Yeah you may think, crazy guy, spend years of study to spend several weeks in a country? Well, that's the truth about me...
Diomira Wrote:Haych, I don't think the OP was bragging about anything. Simply expressing genuine beginner's excitement at finding something fun and great that works for them (and also works for many of us, including me as I say in my reply above, and you as you state yourself).Well, yeah! 100% that! I was just excited and wanted to share, and at the same time I'm kinda maximalist and that's why I often get amazed how can people be using something really outdated/illogical/broken when there's something much better available. I understand that is probably a faulty position or, how do i say, uneducated/unconfirmed one, and thus I often keep it to myself, but with the sequence of learning kanji, it seemed just SO obvious, so I felt it was okay to actually post about it. So definetly not bragging (I mean, what to brag about? completing 10% of the course, finding out something already found out by others?)
2 DrJones
Wow, very interesting. I never actually thought about that, I'm so used to using english books (just because there's more material available than in russian) I never considered that maybe learning Japanese from russian would be easier than from english. I just got Genki (my sister who learnt Japanese advised me to get it) and decided to go with it.
Thing is, with Russia it's worse because russian people suffer from affection to the west, to the point where it's more profitable to call your company (and your merchandise) in english because people think something named in english is "cool" and attractive while something in russian is "bad quality" and "boring". I guess it's the aftermath of the soviet union, where foreign goods were much more pro-customer and generally diversified and "interesting" rather than those made by soviet union itself.
So, for example, in Russia we have letters "s" and "sh", and russian "s + i" sound is closer to japanese "shi" than russian "sh + i" sound. So, when transcribing "sushi" (суши), we should write (and pronounce in russian) "susi" (суси). However, since it's "sushi" in english, anyone who doesn't pronounce it "sushi" in russian (суши), but rather pronounces them more closely to the original, "susi" (суси), would sound like an idiot or an illiterate person, "because look at the english sign, it's written SUSHI, not SUSI".
Still, I think I'll try to look for russian literature on learning japanese. Thanks!
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - Yatagarasu - 2013-10-25
DrJones Wrote:It's also easier to know when it's better to use particles such as は or がYou raise some valid points but I don't agree with the general premise, I still think given the plethora of English resources it would be silly to ignore them and focus only on native, mostly subpar Spanish textbooks, though if you have any high quality Spanish material please do share since I only know of a few. Still, I think many of your points continue to apply for Spanish speakers even when learning with English materials too, it isn't terribly hard to connect the dots and realize how you would express the same thing in Spanish and how it relates to its Japanese counterpart.
I'm intrigued by the quoted part though, because I don't understand how Spanish would help with は & が which were quite confusing to me at first (は in particular) and I still make mistakes to this day.
Also I don't understand how the chart proves that other languages have it easier? It seems to me the ranking was made by and for English speakers and doesn't address native speakers of other languages at all. I'm not saying you're necessarily wrong but I don't think the FSI chart is confirming your thoughts.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - NightSky - 2013-10-25
undead_saif Wrote:@NightSky You can't deny that Kanji is not easy and that it can be a big mental wall for learners. RTK isn't about tackling the hardest thing in Japanese, it's a way to separate the writing system from the language and focus on it before getting into the language, and so it saves you the hustle of learning kanji while facing the other difficulties.I don't think Kanji is particularly difficult to read if I'm honest. I do however think its very hard to write properly. RTK only teaches you part of that anyway, since you still have to remember which characters to use in which words which isn't always easy.
And yes its a big mental wall for many learners, which is a shame because it doesn't have to be. Those who are scared of Kanji spend 6 months doing RTK to get over their fear of them, whilst the rest of us just get on with it and learn how to read them without any real problems. Even if it offers some advantage later, I wouldn't recommend people to spend months climbing over some wall when they can just walk around the side of it.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - Haych - 2013-10-25
Istrebitel Wrote:Also, when I said I'm not serious, well I guess I'm just being honest. And maybe I used "serious" in a sense of "professional use" countrary to "non-professional" use.Ah I gotcha. Join the club, heh. I'm just learning it as a hobby too, and don't have any plans in the immediate future to work there, vacation there, or live there. I think there are a lot of people around here like us. Everyone has their own reasons. Still, whatever your reason for learning, you gotta really WANT to make it happen. Otherwise, you might end up sorta drifting around from study resource to study resource, getting nowhere, and then thinking at the end "well gee, that was a big waste of time." (and I've got some experience in this, lol)
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - ktcgx - 2013-10-25
DrJones Wrote:- Spanish also has "counters" like the japanese. We count cattle in "heads", bread in "bars", and paper in "sheets", just like them.Yeah, we actually have counters for almost everything in English too. Iirc, though, in English, a head of cattle is 10 cows. Bread is counted in loaves, and paper in sheets or pieces.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - PkmnTrainerAbram - 2013-10-25
Haych Wrote:Well, that makes two of us brother, lol.Istrebitel Wrote:Also, when I said I'm not serious, well I guess I'm just being honest. And maybe I used "serious" in a sense of "professional use" countrary to "non-professional" use.Ah I gotcha. Join the club, heh. I'm just learning it as a hobby too, and don't have any plans in the immediate future to work there, vacation there, or live there. I think there are a lot of people around here like us. Everyone has their own reasons. Still, whatever your reason for learning, you gotta really WANT to make it happen. Otherwise, you might end up sorta drifting around from study resource to study resource, getting nowhere, and then thinking at the end "well gee, that was a big waste of time." (and I've got some experience in this, lol)
I finished RTK and started cramming vocab and now I can't even recall(write from memory) alot of individual kanji that I learned, though I damn well can break them down when reading and get the general gist of words.
I still wonder if sometimes I did it all wrong. I'd like to get the ability to write out and spell out words on the fly in kanji like I can in English someday.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - Yatagarasu - 2013-10-25
I suppose it goes against the spirit of this forum but I really wish I had stopped RTK around the 500-800 mark. It did me loads of good until then, that's how far it took me to stop being afraid of kanji, understand and get used to the radical system, stroke order and how the kanji are built, which I feel really helped but... I got really bored and lazy afterwards and with the time it took to complete the full 2k I would have probably done much more if I went straight into grammar/vocab.
With that said writing kanji isn't a priority for me at the moment, maybe sometime in the distant future that could change and doing RTK from scratch (with Japanese keywords I suppose) wouldn't be a terrible idea.
I wonder, how are they actually learning Kanji in a different order? - vonPeterhof - 2013-10-26
@DrJones What Yatagarasu said. The FSI list rates languages other than English on their difficulty of acquisition for native speakers of English; it says nothing about their (dis)similarities to each other. By your logic the list implies that Cantonese and Arabic should be equally easy to learn for a native speaker of Hebrew, since they're both Category V while Hebrew is one category below. And since you brought up the subject of Basque, there is at least one aspect in which Japanese and English are much more similar to each other than to Basque - morphosyntactic alignment. Both Japanese and English are nominative-accusative (English somewhat less strongly), while Basque is probably the purest known example of an ergative-absolutive language (here's a simple explanation). Add to that the fact that both English and Japanese lack noun classes/genders, have an aversion to heavy consonant clusters (yeah, English is more permissive in this regard, but nowhere near the extent of some Slavic, Caucasian or Native American languages) and have the same underlying conceptual metaphor for the passage of time, and English and Japanese no longer look like "the most dissimilar languages in the world".
Istrebitel Wrote:So, for example, in Russia we have letters "s" and "sh", and russian "s + i" sound is closer to japanese "shi" than russian "sh + i" sound. So, when transcribing "sushi" (суши), we should write (and pronounce in russian) "susi" (суси). However, since it's "sushi" in english, anyone who doesn't pronounce it "sushi" in russian (суши), but rather pronounces them more closely to the original, "susi" (суси), would sound like an idiot or an illiterate person, "because look at the english sign, it's written SUSHI, not SUSI".Just to further clarify the situation for those who don't speak Russian, in addition to a transliteration system for Japanese that isn't based on Hepburn, the "Russian sh" is very different from the "sh-sound" present in most European languages. The latter sound, while not identical to the Japanese sh, sounds close enough to it, perhaps more so than the English pronunciation of si/see. The Russian retroflex sh is a poor approximation, while the transcribing し as "si" has the added bonus of keeping the same consonant for the entirety of the サ行 (the Japanese sh sound actually exists in Russian, but its default pronunciation is geminated, meaning that it sounds closer to っし than to し). While most Japanese loanwords in Russian are officially pronounced according to the official transliteration system, some words or brandnames, like Sushi or Toshiba, entered the Russian language through English and are transliterated accordingly.