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Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - drdunlap - 2013-10-18
s0apgun Wrote:Is it possible that you could upload your Anki deck so we can check out your card layout that you described? pls respond (((;゜Д゜))My deck has some random mistakes that I am aware of when I see them but I haven't managed to correct them all so I don't feel good uploading it. ><;
But something like this:
Card Example
The example sentence is clearly from definition #2-- I usually put multiple example sentences, trying to pick from each definition, and label the sentences with the definition number.
Unfortunately this is the best screenshot I have as I no longer have Anki on my computer. :| But it gets the idea across! Most cards are a little bigger due to more example sentences from various definitions (but not all definitions have examples).
Also- I have Recall and Recognition for each so 3000 words = 6000 cards.
(The reading is shown here only because it is in the answer. The reading only shows up on the answer no matter whether the card is Recall or Recognition.)
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - Haych - 2013-10-18
tashippy Wrote:aɪ doʊnt noʊ duːdaɪ siː wʌt ju dɪd ðɛɹ ...
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - da_ni_e_ru - 2013-10-19
Thank you for the write-up and especially for this, which I couldn't agree with more:
drdunlap Wrote:I . . . believe that the trick to both obliterating the N1 and further levels of mastery is an incredible amount of seeing the same thing used in a million different ways.. not just understanding one or two examples perfectly. The N1's questions are saying, 'A native has seen this a million times. It's second nature for them. Have you?' (This is also how the writing/reading teacher of the top level classes at Kobe University explained the N1.) Get the explanation once or twice. Then go hunting for experience..!
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-10-21
Well, I'm finally back from the farm (with about ten pounds of edamame, whew), so I wanted to follow up with you, Dr. Dunlap.
I read what you wrote about five times, and I'm still amazed. I just can't wrap my head around how quickly you did this. Let me ask, do you speak any other languages other than English (and Japanese)?
I understand that you got where you are through good methods and lots of exposure, but I have to wonder if there's anything in your background that could have been a contributing factor to your progress? Musical ability from a young age? Anything?
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - drdunlap - 2013-10-21
I studied French in high school for three years and couldn't read simple texts.. but my accent was decent! (Or so I was told). So if I have a knack for language learning it only appears when I try real hard and have good methods... (so basically.. I.. don't?) I don't speak anything other than English and Japanese these days.
I am a musician, and have been for most of my life, and I do attribute that to my ear for pitch and accent (and rhythm) but not the rest of my language learning...
I think the biggest thing I can claim to have that helped me is the ability to notice (as Steve Kaufmann would say). Notice patterns, notice nuance, notice alternate meanings of words..
I've also always loved problem solving so I actively LOOK for such things as well- rather than just waiting on them to come up. One of my biggest tricks (that I continue to use today) is to search for patterns on Google when I'm trying to express myself or when I'm looking for nuance, etc. Getting good at that has saved me a lot of headache and taught me more than most any teacher ever could.
The only other thing I can think of is the large amount of active exposure I received because of my ridiculous drive to succeed (read: stubbornness). Who else randomly decides "I'm going to read five Murakami Haruki novels!" and just.. does it? In a way that ridiculous stubbornness helped me too, I guess.
Edit: I also made 100% of my anki decks. I feel like this helps I just can't come up with a good explanation as to why.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - ktcgx - 2013-10-21
drdunlap Wrote:I think the biggest thing I can claim to have that helped me is the ability to notice (as Steve Kaufmann would say). Notice patterns, notice nuance, notice alternate meanings of words..Yep, 1) sounds like you have good short-term memory, which is crucial for language learning. (Don't worry, people, it can be trained!!)
I've also always loved problem solving so I actively LOOK for such things as well- rather than just waiting on them to come up. One of my biggest tricks (that I continue to use today) is to search for patterns on Google when I'm trying to express myself or when I'm looking for nuance, etc. Getting good at that has saved me a lot of headache and taught me more than most any teacher ever could.
Edit: I also made 100% of my anki decks. I feel like this helps I just can't come up with a good explanation as to why.
2) A lot of people find this helps too, I think it's to do with mechanical memory, or because you had to spend extra time with the vocab/grammar, really paying attention to it...
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-10-21
Dr. Dunlap, thanks for your forthcoming and thorough answers.
You provided a really good template for anyone wanting to improve his or her Japanese. I'm gonna go read a small stack of novels now.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - drdunlap - 2013-10-22
ktcgx Wrote:1) sounds like you have good short-term memory, which is crucial for language learning. (Don't worry, people, it can be trained!!)Short term memory? My short term memory is.. not the best.
2) A lot of people find this helps too, I think it's to do with mechanical memory, or because you had to spend extra time with the vocab/grammar, really paying attention to it...
The noticing bit is the most important thing, I think. Also I never asked "why?" I just accepted Japanese as it was and kept moving forward. I didn't have anyone to ask "How does this word work? What does this word mean? What's going on??" That was another big part helping me through my first few novels.. if I was caught up on figuring out every little thing perfectly I wouldn't have gotten through one novel, much less five (and now.. ~20?). I understand the "but if I don't understand it I'll get bored and quit and anyway if it's not N+1 it won't do any good" argument but I think I disproved at least the "N+1 or bust" bit.
Input. Lots of input. It works.
As for making my own decks- I think this helps the most in that every word in the deck is very real to me. I can still remember, years later, where I found some of the words in my decks. Even though the context is long gone.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-10-22
Okay, something happened between September 2009 and September 2010. You went from being a normal person to a superman in a year. What on earth happened? That's the time period I want to know about.
So this is you:
September 2009. You're Genki 2 level. Reading a novel very slowly. Half of RTK1. Speaking terrible. Listening terrible. Seems pretty typical. Lot of people in that boat.
Then . . .
September 2010. You can read novels almost dictionary-free and you're writing college-level essays. Very, very few people there.
I've also put in thousands of hours, reading, listening, and anki-ing. I don't feel I'm lacking in input. (I mean, I do live in Japan, watch Japanese TV every day, and hang out with people who speak only Japanese, and I've done that for years). I could do more reading though, I know that.
I'd venture to guess that it's your vocabulary that enabled your progress during that year, and if so, how did you increase it so much in a single year?
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - ktcgx - 2013-10-22
drdunlap Wrote:That bit where you notice things, that's the short term memory I'm talking about, that one that lasts for a few seconds, just long enough for your brain to file it awayktcgx Wrote:1) sounds like you have good short-term memory, which is crucial for language learning. (Don't worry, people, it can be trained!!)Short term memory? My short term memory is.. not the best.
2) A lot of people find this helps too, I think it's to do with mechanical memory, or because you had to spend extra time with the vocab/grammar, really paying attention to it...
The noticing bit is the most important thing, I think.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - drdunlap - 2013-10-22
ktcgx Wrote:File it now.. remember it later.. I think you mean long term memory.drdunlap Wrote:That bit where you notice things, that's the short term memory I'm talking about, that one that lasts for a few seconds, just long enough for your brain to file it awayktcgx Wrote:1) sounds like you have good short-term memory, which is crucial for language learning. (Don't worry, people, it can be trained!!)Short term memory? My short term memory is.. not the best.
2) A lot of people find this helps too, I think it's to do with mechanical memory, or because you had to spend extra time with the vocab/grammar, really paying attention to it...
The noticing bit is the most important thing, I think.
But I don't know- I forget a lot.
I just had Anki and constant exposure to keep me going. (￣ー￣)ｂ
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - undead_saif - 2013-10-22
drdunlap Wrote:The only other thing I can think of is the large amount of active exposure I received because of my ridiculous drive to succeed (read: stubbornness). Who else randomly decides "I'm going to read five Murakami Haruki novels!" and just.. does it? In a way that ridiculous stubbornness helped me too, I guess.That is what caught my attention the most. And after reading your first post I decided to get serious about reading native materials!
drdunlap Wrote:if I was caught up on figuring out every little thing perfectly I wouldn't have gotten through one novel, much less five (and now.. ~20?). I understand the "but if I don't understand it I'll get bored and quit and anyway if it's not N+1 it won't do any good" argument but I think I disproved at least the "N+1 or bust" bit.As a person who fights his high perfectionism, I salute you for this motivational detail!
Another example of how perfectionism can be very handicapping.Thanks!
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - ktcgx - 2013-10-22
drdunlap Wrote:Nope, short-termktcgx Wrote:File it now.. remember it later.. I think you mean long term memory.drdunlap Wrote:Short term memory? My short term memory is.. not the best.That bit where you notice things, that's the short term memory I'm talking about, that one that lasts for a few seconds, just long enough for your brain to file it away
The noticing bit is the most important thing, I think.
But I don't know- I forget a lot.
I just had Anki and constant exposure to keep me going. (￣ー￣)ｂ
Did you see the polyglots vs polynots video someone posted a short while ago? What you did sounds very much like what he talks about on the vid.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - Melamelachan - 2013-10-22
OK, so you took classes, went through RTK, Tae Kim and several textbooks and made thousands of Anki cards.
In what way exactly is this "don't study"?
Don't get me wrong, I think what you did is awesome, and I'm very impressed. I just think that we might be lying to ourselves (and to others who are just beginning to learn Japanese) if we keep telling them that no study is involved. It's simply not true. Watching movies, playing games, talking to people, reading books and all that is important and helps make a language second nature. But for some things, we just sit down and study, either in a class or with a textbook or by going through our flashcards, and that's completely OK.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - SammyB - 2013-10-22
^ I don't think anyone is saying starting with a class or a textbook is a terrible idea... And I don't think Dr. Dunlap is saying "don't study" either. As you said, he did do classes, some textbooks, flashcards, etc. And so have all most of us here. However we never got to the level he did... That, I believe, was the whole point of this thread. Exploring what it was that made the difference.
We can see that it was a combination of things, however what seems to stand out is massive amounts of input and exposure to native materials -- "getting used to" the language as it exists in real life, not just study materials.
"Just sit down and study" is of course part of it too. I agree with you there. But it's the part that most of us here do, and then feel frustrated 3 years later when we still can't read a novel or express ourselves fluidly in Japanese.
EDIT: 習うより慣れろ "Don't study, get used to it." OK, so he did literally write that, fair enough, but the English is blunter than the Japanese there. It doesn't really mean DON'T STUDY AT ALL EVER. But rather, I think it's expressing his feeling (from his experience) that "getting used to" Japanese through consistent exposure to native materials is MORE IMPORTANT than working through grammar books, etc. <----- but those are useful, particularly to begin with.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - Vempele - 2013-10-22
Melamelachan Wrote:OK, so you took classes, went through RTK, Tae Kim and several textbooks and made thousands of Anki cards.The part where all of that amounts to a fraction of his total study time of ~2300 hours (plus "living mainly in Japanese" for 11 months). Also, the part where the thousands of Anki cards come from native materials he read himself instead of Core6k. That's not really studying... it's more like optimizing your time between memorization and dictionary lookups.
In what way exactly is this "don't study"?
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - nadiatims - 2013-10-22
In terms of counting as "studying" as such, I don't really see the distinction between using textbooks and using native materials. When you're low level, the content is difficult and you are presumedly doing some mental leg work to comprehend the material, using dictionaries, re-reading sentences, googling things etc.
The reason native materials get you further in the long run is they just cover much greater breadth of content. Learner material is almost always going to be deliberately restricted to a subset of beginner/intermediate/advanced grammar. Also you don't spend time on english explanations of things or drills.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - drdunlap - 2013-10-22
drdunlap Wrote:Also- don't forget the hard work. Languages cannot be mastered in any length of time without the proper application of hard work.That line came seriously RIGHT after the "get used to it" part.
Of course "studying" is involved but.. ngg. Ok, explaining again all the things I've said in order to explain why I say 習うより慣れろ will just waste our time.
Here's a good one:
drdunlap Wrote:I never asked "why?" I just accepted Japanese as it was and kept moving forward. I didn't have anyone to ask "How does this word work? What does this word mean? What's going on??" That was another big part helping me through my first few novels.. if I was caught up on figuring out every little thing perfectly I wouldn't have gotten through one novel, much less five (and now.. ~20?). I understand the "but if I don't understand it I'll get bored and quit and anyway if it's not N+1 it won't do any good" argument but I think I disproved at least the "N+1 or bust" bit.The only significant difference I can see between me and the learners around me is this annoyingly subtle difference. Don't "study" it, per se, just take it in and get used to it. Of course you're "studying" it (and working your ass off to get it all in your brain) but all the crazy focus on study methods and why why why and splitting hairs does nothing but waste time and confuse. That's probably why I didn't post on this forum until after I passed N1 and went back to the US. :|
Input. Lots of input. It works.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - drdunlap - 2013-10-22
JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:Okay, something happened between September 2009 and September 2010. You went from being a normal person to a superman in a year. What on earth happened? That's the time period I want to know about.Sorry, I just noticed this. ><;
So this is you:
September 2009. You're Genki 2 level. Reading a novel very slowly. Half of RTK1. Speaking terrible. Listening terrible. Seems pretty typical. Lot of people in that boat.
Then . . .
September 2010. You can read novels almost dictionary-free and you're writing college-level essays. Very, very few people there.
I've also put in thousands of hours, reading, listening, and anki-ing. I don't feel I'm lacking in input. (I mean, I do live in Japan, watch Japanese TV every day, and hang out with people who speak only Japanese, and I've done that for years). I could do more reading though, I know that.
I'd venture to guess that it's your vocabulary that enabled your progress during that year, and if so, how did you increase it so much in a single year?
So I'll answer!
The novel-reading summer was an extremely condensed period of "noticing." I had my nose in a book for hours a day just taking it in and, more importantly, paying attention. I read 4 novels in 4 months and started on a 5th.. despite not being able to read worth a damn at the beginning of those 4 months. There was honestly a lot that didn't make sense, even at the end of those 4 months, but I had all the parts in place and my year in Japan as a student just polished them and turned them into natural Japanese.
I think I understand though, in a way. I've been back in Japan for a year now and all I can really say I've done is polish the skills I already had. Even though I've continued to read news and novels and spoken an incredible amount of Japanese.. I guess I also got a Kansai accent so that's a thing. When I'm in Japan it's easy to forget the "hard work" part and JUST do the "swimming in a sea of Japanese" part. Of course I have learned a lot since I returned but not at an amazing rate where I can see my progress. (Also I guess the "progress gets harder to see and harder to advance the more advanced you get" thing is.. a thing.)
The vocabulary helped.. and I got it all by reading books and not understanding them (but wanting to). But I had what.. ~6500 by the time I went to Kobe? Or so? I did add 3000 cards during the intense novel-reading period. I also added ~3000 during my year at Kobe so I guess on top of polishing I was gathering new parts as well.
Also, during the last year I "studied" while I was in the US, I only added 1000 words to Anki. Exactly 1000.. but I had all my games and novels and a burning desire to not forget.. so I had my nose in a book, or a TV screen full of Japanese, or an FC2 Chatroom full of the most ridiculously broken Japanese ever, and once again I just paid attention to every little thing and soaked it in.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - ryanjmack - 2013-10-22
Wow, drdunlap I'm really impressed that you've made it to where you are know. Your success with the japanese language provides motivation for the less experienced (like myself). How did you get enrolled in the study abroad program? What other games did you play in Japanese? I'm thinking of getting Metal Gear Solid in the near future
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - speck - 2013-10-22
drdunlap Wrote:A quote from the end of this period, "The biggest hurdle at this point is that, as in putting together a puzzle, even if you have all the pieces you don't necessarily know how they fit together. That will just take time and exposure, I imagine."I am just about here in my studies (having done RTK, Genki 1+2, Tae Kim, and AAP) you have no idea how happy this thread has made me. I was starting to doubt myself (and feeling slightly lost as to where to go next), wondering if I was ever going to get anywhere. Your level of Japanese is what I'm hoping to reach eventually- it looks like I am on the right track!
Time to crack open An Integrated Approach, and then on to real Books...
Thank you!
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - kazuki - 2013-10-22
drdunlap, thank you so much for your inspiring story!
drdunlap Wrote:The novel-reading summer was an extremely condensed period of "noticing." I had my nose in a book for hours a day just taking it in and, more importantly, paying attention. I read 4 novels in 4 months and started on a 5th.. despite not being able to read worth a damn at the beginning of those 4 months. There was honestly a lot that didn't make sense, even at the end of those 4 months, but I had all the parts in place and my year in Japan as a student just polished them and turned them into natural Japanese.It's interesting to hear so many successful language learners attributing a lot of their success to reading native material. I started at around the time drdunlap started but never made this leap, at least in the reading for pleasure sense. Every time I was exposed to Japanese, even if it was playing FF13 for example, it felt like the "noticing" you describe somehow drained the pleasure out of it to some degree. I have a feeling that perfectionism had a hand in this. Which brings me to a question I have about the quote above..
You mentioned creating a few thousand of your own cards during the hardcore summer of reading. I seem to remember you saying perhaps somewhere in this thread that you don't stop and lookup every unknown, but just the ones that peaked your interest, I think? I, too, tried to read through a Murakami Haruki novel without looking up anything and trying to guess readings and meanings. After three or four chapters or so of doing this (it took several hours) I felt I had a grasp of what was going on, but I did not continue because I wasn't entirely sure that it was actually helping me.
Oh, I guess I sorta forgot about the question part.. Did you use any specific techniques to maximize your learning while you were reading for pleasure? Forgive me if you mentioned it before. I personally find it very irritating to stop at any point when doing an activity for pleasure, FF13 or novels, so I am interested in how you dealt with it.
Thank you so much for your insight to help us learners even though you've already completed the journey!
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - drdunlap - 2013-10-22
ryanjmack Wrote:How did you get enrolled in the study abroad program? What other games did you play in Japanese? I'm thinking of getting Metal Gear Solid in the near futureMy study abroad program was through my home university at the time. I applied and got chosen. Other games I played in Japanese: Star Ocean 4, Castlevania: Lords of Shadow, Metal Gear Solid 4, Final Fantasy 4, Golden Sun: Dark Dawn, Pokemon White and (later, when it came out in Japanese) Skyrim.
Metal Gear solid is a goldmine of spoken and written Japanese but it's also at quite a high level. If you're OK with that then I recommend it- but it will be quite hard at lower levels. (Although, if you love the game, you can always play it over and over as your comprehension increases.)
speck Wrote:I am just about here in my studies...This was the absolute worst part. D: Keep on going!!
kazuki Wrote:You mentioned creating a few thousand of your own cards during the hardcore summer of reading. I seem to remember you saying perhaps somewhere in this thread that you don't stop and lookup every unknown, but just the ones that peaked your interest, I think? I, too, tried to read through a Murakami Haruki novel without looking up anything and trying to guess readings and meanings. After three or four chapters or so of doing this (it took several hours) I felt I had a grasp of what was going on, but I did not continue because I wasn't entirely sure that it was actually helping me.It's helping. It just requires a considerable amount of reading to see the benefits... (although I saw marked improvements after my first novel, it took over a month to read).
Oh, I guess I sorta forgot about the question part.. Did you use any specific techniques to maximize your learning while you were reading for pleasure? Forgive me if you mentioned it before. I personally find it very irritating to stop at any point when doing an activity for pleasure, FF13 or novels, so I am interested in how you dealt with it.
I looked up things that seemed useful (in the beginning that was quite a few words per page) or interesting. I also tended to look up most anything with a kanji I couldn't read yet. Like I said- I would often type into Rikaichan for a quick lookup if I was near a computer. But mainly I would just write things down to add later-- unless I was completely lost. Then I looked up right away. :]
The noticing for me is a passive thing so it's never drained the fun out of anything.. I just let things come in and say, "Oh, so this is how Japanese works in a Japanese way." or "Oh, this is what you say in X situation.." and there it was.
[[Edit: This is one of my top secret arcane secrets.
No attempting to explain Japanese to myself in an English way or wonder why something is said a certain way-- it just is. It's a new language and it operates on its own terms- English has nothing to do with it.]]Here is a picture of me studying using Star Ocean 4 ...
(My caption at the time on this photo was "Where I come from we call this "studying."")
kazuki Wrote:Thank you so much for your insight to help us learners even though you've already completed the journey!I'm just higher up the mountain but I'm still climbing!
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - rahsoul - 2013-10-22
kazuki Wrote:I personally find it very irritating to stop at any point when doing an activity for pleasure, FF13 or novels, so I am interested in how you dealt with it.I've just started reading books in Japanese and I really recommend either getting them on kindle, or reading them on a computer with Rikisama or something similar. It really makes a huge difference in keeping things flowing, as looking up a word is almost instantaneous. It won't be as good or as thorough if you have a really awesome Japanese dictionary, but for getting in as much reading as possible it's fantastic.
Also, even though it's hard at the beginning, just learn to let go of things you don't understand. It's an acquired skill which you can learn with practice. =)
I did start with a book that I have in English though (Harry Potter), I think it helps a lot. I get a ton of "aha!" moments.
Arcane Secrets! (or one man's language learning story) - repdetect2 - 2013-10-22
drdunlap,
Amazing post--it reads like a TED talk "My Rise to fluency"; so many takeaways for me as a first year self-learner. If I might, I have a question please.
You started your rise to fluency in '08, but today with new tools, utilities and technology do you have any suggestions on what you do if you started over today? Do you see anything that the self-learners of today aren't using to the full or are over using? Thanks.