Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method?

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - Printable Version

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Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - gserli - 2013-10-13

yudantaiteki Wrote:
tashippy Wrote:I agree with everything you said, sir/madam.

yudantaiteki Wrote:I know that native Chinese speakers often have difficulty with the voiced vs. unvoiced syllables in Japanese..
I'm not really familiar with the idea of voiced or unvoiced syllables. What does this mean? Thanks.
た vs. だ, か vs. が, etc

Just as you said, I can't find the difference between them.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - CaLeDee - 2013-10-13

gserli Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:
tashippy Wrote:I agree with everything you said, sir/madam.

I'm not really familiar with the idea of voiced or unvoiced syllables. What does this mean? Thanks.
た vs. だ, か vs. が, etc
Just as you said, I can't find the difference between them.

So you can't tell the difference between tank and dank? Sue and zoo? Core and gore? Japanese voiced and unvoiced sounds are just the same as English. They sound different.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - Stansfield123 - 2013-10-13

All languages do this. And it's not wrong. Far from it, it's a good idea (both borrowing words from other languages rather than creating them from scratch, and changing their pronunciation to contain only the sounds of the language they're used in). Trying to pronounce loan words like they are in each language they come from would make languages more complex than they need to be.

As far as HK doing it a better way, sounds like it works the same way: you're still using sounds that exist in Cantonese pronunciation, they just happen to be closer to English pronunciation than Japanese is.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - gserli - 2013-10-13

BTW, the reason why I register and write this thread is that they also use transliterations even they have words to represent the original meaning from the foreign vocab.
Take smartphone as a example(sorry, I'm a geek), they call mobile phone as 携帯電話, and they definitely got a word to represent Smart.
I don't understand why do they keep making new terms.
It's quite hard for me to read those Kana English words. If they want to make them sounds cool, why don't they just write English? Today's Japanese could read and write English quite well.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - gserli - 2013-10-13

CaLeDee Wrote:
gserli Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:た vs. だ, か vs. が, etc
Just as you said, I can't find the difference between them.
So you can't tell the difference between tank and dank? Sue and zoo? Core and gore? Japanese voiced and unvoiced sounds are just the same as English. They sound different.

I can tell the difference tank and dank. But in Japanese, T sound and D sound is quite similar. I've check Wikipedia about that before, that's not actually the same with English's D sound and T sound.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - gserli - 2013-10-13

gserli Wrote:BTW, the reason why I register and write this thread is that they also use transliterations even they have words to represent the original meaning from the foreign vocab.
Take smartphone as a example(sorry, I'm a geek), they call mobile phone as 携帯電話, and they definitely got a word to represent Smart.
I don't understand why do they keep making new terms.
It's quite hard for me to read those Kana English words. If they want to make them sounds cool, why don't they just write English? Today's Japanese could read and write English quite well.

I'm so sorry. Actually Hong Kong people have serious problem on certain English words because of our transliterations. Some of them are definitely wrong, but we never correct it. We almost forgot it was came from English. I shouldn't talk like we are doing the best.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - CaLeDee - 2013-10-13

gserli Wrote:
CaLeDee Wrote:
gserli Wrote:Just as you said, I can't find the difference between them.
So you can't tell the difference between tank and dank? Sue and zoo? Core and gore? Japanese voiced and unvoiced sounds are just the same as English. They sound different.
I can tell the difference tank and dank. But in Japanese, T sound and D sound is quite similar. I've check Wikipedia about that before, that's not actually the same with English's D sound and T sound.

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/audiock.swf?u=kana=%25E3%2582%25BF%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25AF

http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~jwb/audiock.swf?u=kana=%25E3%2583%2580%25E3%2583%25B3%25E3%2582%25AF

For me, these do not sound the same. I'm a native English speaker and I would say the difference between these is equivalent to the difference between tank and dank, to my ears anyway. I'm sure it's simply a matter of becoming accustomed to the sounds. I can't remember if I ever found it difficult to separate voiced and unvoiced Japanese sounds, but I don't think I did.

As for why Japanese do not adhere to the original English sounds when katakanafying English words, I'd guess that it's because the original pronunciation doesn't matter. Just like when English takes words from other languages, we don't retain the original pronunciation, we change it to whatever feels most comfortable. Balcony is a good example. This is originally an Italian word where it is pronounced bal_CO_ny, yet every English speaker pronounces it as BAL_cony.

I also imagine that because Japanese doesn't quite have the elasticity (for lack of a better word) to accurately mimic English sounds, they feel little incentive to be more accurate when loaning from English, or any language.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - yudantaiteki - 2013-10-13

CaLeDee Wrote:
gserli Wrote:
yudantaiteki Wrote:た vs. だ, か vs. が, etc
Just as you said, I can't find the difference between them.
So you can't tell the difference between tank and dank? Sue and zoo? Core and gore? Japanese voiced and unvoiced sounds are just the same as English. They sound different.

It's actually not 100% the same as English. If your た vs. だ is the same as English "tank" vs. "dank" you're technically speaking with an American accent. I know from my teaching experience that native Chinese speakers have a really hard time with this difference. You can't just keep repeating "Well, I think they sound different", the truth is that for many native Chinese speakers, they don't. It has to do with what your ear has been trained to pick up through your native language.

gserli: 携帯電話 is also a loan word, from Chinese.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - Codexus - 2013-10-13

gserli Wrote:I can tell the difference tank and dank. But in Japanese, T sound and D sound is quite similar. I've check Wikipedia about that before, that's not actually the same with English's D sound and T sound.

Maybe I can offer a possible explanation. I know that in Mandarin the T and D sound are distinguished by whether they are aspirated (extra puff of air for T compared to D). Not whether they are voiced (extra vibration in the throat). (Which by the way makes it hard for me to tell them apart). If it's the same in Cantonese (I'm not sure if it is), you'll have trouble since in Japanese the T sound is much less aspirated than in English. It's the lack of voicing that distinguishes it from D.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - CaLeDee - 2013-10-13

yudantaiteki Wrote:
CaLeDee Wrote:
gserli Wrote:Just as you said, I can't find the difference between them.
So you can't tell the difference between tank and dank? Sue and zoo? Core and gore? Japanese voiced and unvoiced sounds are just the same as English. They sound different.
It's actually not 100% the same as English. If your た vs. だ is the same as English "tank" vs. "dank" you're technically speaking with an American accent. I know from my teaching experience that native Chinese speakers have a really hard time with this difference. You can't just keep repeating "Well, I think they sound different", the truth is that for many native Chinese speakers, they don't. It has to do with what your ear has been trained to pick up through your native language.

gserli: 携帯電話 is also a loan word, from Chinese.

Well since two people have now misunderstood me I'll just assume I didn't articulate myself well enough. I wasn't trying to say that English and Japanese voiced/unvoiced sounds are the same, I was simply saying that the existence of voiced and unvoiced sounds is the same. I'm sure to Japanese ears the difference between their voiced/unvoiced is just as evident as any other languages' voiced/unvoiced sounds.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - gserli - 2013-10-13

Codexus Wrote:
gserli Wrote:I can tell the difference tank and dank. But in Japanese, T sound and D sound is quite similar. I've check Wikipedia about that before, that's not actually the same with English's D sound and T sound.
Maybe I can offer a possible explanation. I know that in Mandarin the T and D sound are distinguished by whether they are aspirated (extra puff of air for T compared to D). Not whether they are voiced (extra vibration in the throat). (Which by the way makes it hard for me to tell them apart). If it's the same in Cantonese (I'm not sure if it is), you'll have trouble since in Japanese the T sound is much less aspirated than in English. It's the lack of voicing that distinguishes it from D.

Yeah, you're right. So we native Chinese speaker also can't speak the correct T and D sound in English. But when it comes to Japanese, it is much more difficult.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - gserli - 2013-10-13

yudantaiteki Wrote:
CaLeDee Wrote:
gserli Wrote:Just as you said, I can't find the difference between them.
So you can't tell the difference between tank and dank? Sue and zoo? Core and gore? Japanese voiced and unvoiced sounds are just the same as English. They sound different.
It's actually not 100% the same as English. If your た vs. だ is the same as English "tank" vs. "dank" you're technically speaking with an American accent. I know from my teaching experience that native Chinese speakers have a really hard time with this difference. You can't just keep repeating "Well, I think they sound different", the truth is that for many native Chinese speakers, they don't. It has to do with what your ear has been trained to pick up through your native language.

gserli: 携帯電話 is also a loan word, from Chinese.

Is 携帯電話 actually a loan word from Chinese?
I heard that Japanese make the translation of telephone - 電話 and Chinese took it.
We don't call it 携帯電話 in Chinese, we call it 手提電話. At least they put 携帯 and 電話 together and make it their own word.
I'm not try to say that Kanji is better, they can also use their own hiragana words. But too much Katakana English words isn't that good. They could write English if they think that's cool.
2nd Edit: I've check the wikipedia, 電話 is actually a Japanese word. Japanese made it and Chinese took it. It's called 和製漢語. There are so many examples. We are still keep taking new words from them.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - yudantaiteki - 2013-10-13

Well, it's a word made out of Chinese morphemes -- you're right that it's not a direct borrowing of a Chinese word.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-10-14

If you speak with the correct pronunciation likes names they may not understand you/have difficult etc
like in this video 26:28
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM5ODkzODY4.html

30:50 - http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjMwMDQ1NDAw.html
1:40
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTc0NjA1ODU2.html

I personally don't like the over-usage of english in japanese so I avoid using english words in my japanese ie フレンドリー　ケア　ハード　ソフト　シビア　オブラートに包む. there's lots more. it sounds so ridiculous sometimes.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - yudantaiteki - 2013-10-14

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:I personally don't like the over-usage of english in japanese so I avoid using english words in my japanese

Isn't the goal to speak natural Japanese?

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - uisukii - 2013-10-14

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:If you speak with the correct pronunciation likes names they may not understand you/have difficult etc
like in this video 26:28
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMjM5ODkzODY4.html

I personally don't like the over-usage of english in japanese so I avoid using english words in my japanese ie フレンドリー　ケア　ハード　ソフト　シビア　オブラートに包む. there's lots more. it sounds so ridiculous sometimes.

Do you avoid French, Italian, Greek, Latin, etc. origin words when speaking English? There are a ridiculous amount of stolen/imported words in the English language which we accept as natural sounding English... like how the Japanese accept a lot of the English, German, Spanish, Chinese, etc. originated words in their language as natural sounding Japanese.

Where do you drawn the arbitrary line in the sand?

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - Vempele - 2013-10-14

yudantaiteki Wrote:
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:I personally don't like the over-usage of english in japanese so I avoid using english words in my japanese
Isn't the goal to speak natural Japanese?

The ultimate goal is to qualify for a Language Nazi license.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-10-14

It's just my personal preference. I don't want to use the words listed plus a lot more. it's not like I can't say the exact same things in pure japanese. i notice they tend to overuse english and it sounds ridiculous after a certain point. You never came across japanese where they used so much english you're just like wtf why don't you use japanese?? (where they use such english words that you would imagine that probably some japanese don't even know what the english word means. sometimes I don't know either because of the katakana conversation. ) I've come across so many times. maybe it's just affects me like that? If I have to use kataknaa words like people's names or places I will definitively pronounce the katakana way since it's necessary for people to understood me but i will never use the words listed (and there's so much more beyond those). it's my choice how i want to speak/sound.

i googled around about this before in the past because it bothers me and this is all i found. so it seems like there are people who feel like i do towards it and other people are indifferent about it and some people even like it and think it's a good thing.
http://note.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/detail/n14673
http://detail.chiebukuro.yahoo.co.jp/qa/question_detail/q1446811904

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - tashippy - 2013-10-14

pre-edit: deleted snarky comment to Vempele.

Uisukii, you are right it's an arbitrary line in the sand and the ocean keeps washing away this sand castle and its moat!

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-10-14

I mentioned my personal preference (to avoid using UNNECESSARy engrish as much as possible not necessarily 100%. ) since the op was complaining about kataknaa and the only "retaliation" you can do is to not use it yourself since you can't make them change their katakana usage etc etc.

ooh found more interesting stuff to read by googling yokomoji
http://www.m9l-o-l.com/archives/29217532.html
http://www.huffingtonpost.jp/2013/06/25/adopted_words_n_3498850.html
http://senpou.cocolog-nifty.com/sousen/2013/07/post-fe62.html
http://blog.livedoor.jp/nico3q3q/archives/67820187.html
http://blogs.yahoo.co.jp/nipponko2007/40129670.html ( the comments)

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - TwoMoreCharacters - 2013-10-14

howtwosavealif3 Wrote:I mentioned my personal preference since the op was complaining about kataknaa and the only "retaliation" you can do is to not use it yourself since you can't make them change their katakana usage etc etc.

Yes, but you should note that your "English-free" version of Japanese isn't more natural or pure because you're excluding loan words. Languages are organic and develop through the way its native speakers see fit to use it for communication.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - tashippy - 2013-10-14

I keep thinking I know what you mean howtosavealif3 but I'm not sure. Do you mean that you are not learning a new language to learn words you already "know"? So it's more fun/challenging to to learn to express something without the borrowed words/ideas? What about false friends? Isn't etymology interesting no matter what the history?

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - qwertyytrewq - 2013-10-14

Off-topic: Haha, howtosavealif3 is an "interesting" one. Reading his questionable posts in this thread reminded me of his questionable posts in another thread where he "advises" Japanese language learners to use machine-translated Korean to Japanese movie subtitles if the Japanese subtitles are absent. At the time, I proclaimed this advice to be "completely retarded." Since that incident, I've always taken his posts with a grain of salt.

For more details: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=9040

Back on topic: You're avoiding uisukii's question: If you choose to not use Katakana words in the Japanese language, then for consistency, do you choose not to use foreign-derived words in your English language usage?

Apparently howtwosavealif3 is a Korean so those in the know can inquisition him similarly in regards to the Korean language.

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - TwoMoreCharacters - 2013-10-14

What the hell, you use gossip with personal attacks to invalidate someone's opinion?

Why can't Japanese improve their katakana coverting method? - tokyostyle - 2013-11-13

gserli Wrote:Take smartphone as a example(sorry, I'm a geek), they call mobile phone as 携帯電話, and they definitely got a word to represent Smart.
I don't understand why do they keep making new terms.

It gets so much worse. The opposite of スマホ is a ガラ携 where the ガラ comes from Galapagos, as in the islands. Then there is スマート which has nothing to do with intelligence, or phones for that matter, but everything to do with fashion style. Oh, and then comes スタイル has nothing to do with fashion but is completely about shape and appearance.

It's best to just accept it all and move on ...

... at least until your Japanese gets to the level where you can enjoy the Japanese discussion about which smart is the smart in smart phone.