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iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - styrmis - 2013-10-16
Hi ColdCore (and everyone else),
I'm Stefan, long-time RvTK user, mostly lurker and fan (since 2007), now working with Tao on iiKanji. I build and maintain the Benkyo.co site and SRS core and Tao is the designer of iiKanji itself.
Many thanks for the suggestions; faster reviewing has been requested a few times so we will definitely work on improving this, including adding keyboard shortcuts, and generally reducing time between cards.
When you have a moment can you send me a message through the system please?
A big thanks to everyone who's been trying the system so far by the way!
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-16
#1038 it might be better to add, in brackets, in a hospital, or something, otherwise it could be confused with "kind and patient" kind of patient...
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - legendmaxx - 2013-10-17
Looking at all the confusion English translations have caused, I'm glad I went primarily monolingual. Not to say that these translations aren't useful or anything though, since sometimes they really are helpful, but you all know this.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-20
ktcgx Wrote:#1038 it might be better to add, in brackets, in a hospital, or something, otherwise it could be confused with "kind and patient" kind of patient...Thanks, ktcgx. Fixed. As well as the one for "journal" you mentioned previously.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-20
Thanks for implementing being able to see what kanji are new, studying and already learnt. One thing I think people might find useful is to have a note after each kanji in the "Studying" column that says when it's due.
EDIT:
(#1188) definition is "to turn head". I think "to turn your head" or something would be better. Because the word has an abstract meaning too, I think maybe "to look back" might be better, as it matches both the physical and abstract meanings...
EDIT2: Yakusoku is better translated as "promise" rather than "engagement".
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-20
EDIT, sorry, in this post I made a mistake, so ignore it.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-21
Ok a feature I'm really starting to want is a "back" button during the study phase... The amount of time I've accidentally clicked "study" instead of "already mastered" (or vice versa)... *flips table*
So that would be really helpful...
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-21
ktcgx Wrote:Thanks for implementing being able to see what kanji are new, studying and already learnt. One thing I think people might find useful is to have a note after each kanji in the "Studying" column that says when it's due.Thanks for the suggestion. We will see what we can do.
ktcgx Wrote:EDIT:Yes. I changed it to "to look back".
(#1188) definition is "to turn head". I think "to turn your head" or something would be better. Because the word has an abstract meaning too, I think maybe "to look back" might be better, as it matches both the physical and abstract meanings...
ktcgx Wrote:EDIT2: Yakusoku is better translated as "promise" rather than "engagement".Yakusoku is also used for appointments (with the doctor, ...) and with the general meaning of engagement, commitment. I added the work "promise" to the English translation. Now it is "engagement, promise".
Thanks for both suggestions.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-21
ktcgx Wrote:Ok a feature I'm really starting to want is a "back" button during the study phase... The amount of time I've accidentally clicked "study" instead of "already mastered" (or vice versa)... *flips table*We also thought that this feature would be very 便利 to have. We'll see what we can do.
Thanks!
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-21
Taoromera Wrote:Hmmm, yes, you're right, it's also used for appointments. But in English, it's weird to say you have an engagement with the doctor etc, usually engagement only refers to a marriage engagement. The only other thing I can think of is "engaging the services of so-and-so" but that's really become obscure. Also, it can refer to reservations, eg restaurants. I think perhaps it's better to change it to "appointment, promise".ktcgx Wrote:EDIT2: Yakusoku is better translated as "promise" rather than "engagement".Yakusoku is also used for appointments (with the doctor, ...) and with the general meaning of engagement, commitment. I added the work "promise" to the English translation. Now it is "engagement, promise".
Thanks for both suggestions.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-21
(#1532) you've translated 走行(する) as "running a wheeled vehicle" and yes, that's the first dictionary definition, but I feel like that's not quite right. "Running a vehicle" in English sounds like there should be an "agent" (?) in the sentence in Japanese such as "the conductor is running the bus", but "soukou" can't take a topic. I just checked with some of the teachers at my school, and they're definite about it. Only "kuruma ga soukou suru" type sentences are ok. So I think it's better to translate it differently, but I can't quite think how best to do so.
Sorry for the weird English, I always find it hard to switch my brain back into normal English after discussing things in Japanese.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - DrJones - 2013-10-22
梅雨 is usually read as つゆ (ateji) instead of ばいう (ON reading).
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-24
ktcgx Wrote:Hmmm, yes, you're right, it's also used for appointments. But in English, it's weird to say you have an engagement with the doctor etc, usually engagement only refers to a marriage engagement. The only other thing I can think of is "engaging the services of so-and-so" but that's really become obscure. Also, it can refer to reservations, eg restaurants. I think perhaps it's better to change it to "appointment, promise".Ok, thanks for pointing this out. I've changed it to "appointment, promise".
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-24
ktcgx Wrote:(#1532) you've translated 走行(する) as "running a wheeled vehicle" [...]. I just checked with some of the teachers at my school, and they're definite about it. Only "kuruma ga soukou suru" type sentences are ok. So I think it's better to translate it differently, but I can't quite think how best to do so.Yes, you're right. I didn't realize it myself when I checked the English definitions.
I changed it to "(a vehicle) to run by itself".
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-24
Thanks! Sorry to be so nit-picky...
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-24
DrJones Wrote:梅雨 is usually read as つゆ (ateji) instead of ばいう (ON reading).Yes. Our weighting coefficients for both readings were not correct, so the reading ばいう for 梅雨 was considered by the algorithm much more frequent than it actually is.
I changed the anchor word to 梅毒 (ばいどく, syphilis).
Thanks for pointing this out, DrJones.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-24
ktcgx Wrote:Thanks! Sorry to be so nit-picky...Not at all! I really appreciate all your comments and corrections.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - DrJones - 2013-10-25
I'm already over 3000 readings in iiKanji, and I think I finally formed an opinion on the tool. I think you might not like to hear it, but I'll say it anyways.
I think this tool has some flaws and some conceptual problems.
The order is suboptimal. While it lists the words according to their frequency in japanese texts, that is only "optimal" if you are supposed to stop using the tool at that point. If your purpose is to learn all readings, the order is far from optimal. Heisig users also use a wacky order to learn the kanji, but that's because the goal is to learn all of them. By ordering for frequency, you lose all the benefits of learning the readings using a logical order (by minimizing the number of "building blocks" at each step, and exposing the patterns that give internal consistency to the japanese script).
The tool isn't as helpful as it could be, because it explicitly avoids to tell the user any relation that can exist between words and between kanji. For example, using this tool the user will know that 図 is read sometimes ず and sometimes と, but will not know how to differenciate between the two readings. Knowing that 図 is read と could also be helpful to learn the reading of 斗, but the tool doesn't let you see that relation, so it takes longer time to learn, more "brain space", and makes it easier to forget (because there is one less "anchor" to remember the reading).
The tool is redundant and ambiguous because it strictly limits itself one reading per flashcard, even when two would be better (this is also a mistake that Heisig does). 夜 can be read よ and よる and have the same meaning, there's no penalty in learning the two readings at the same time, however you create a trouble by having each reading in a different flashcard. Even when there's no risk of confusion, merging flashcards as for example 語る and 語り would kill two birds with one stone.
The tool also includes plenty of rare readings for words that you'll likely never meet in a japanese text, while there are a lot of words that are commonly used but whose kanji is no longer used and/or not on the list. If the purpose is maximizing the amount of japanese text you are able to read at a given point, this tool would have better results if it didn't restrict itself to the jouyou and all its readings.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-29
DrJones Wrote:I'm already over 3000 readings in iiKanji, and I think I finally formed an opinion on the tool. I think you might not like to hear it, but I'll say it anyways.We are open to any comments, as long as they are constructive.
DrJones Wrote:The order is suboptimal.This is a bold statement. I hope you have substantial arguments to support it.
DrJones Wrote:While it lists the words according to their frequency in japanese texts, that is only "optimal" if you are supposed to stop using the tool at that point.iiKanji's purpose is to teach the jouyou readings of the jouyou kanji, which form 94% of Japanese texts. Take it or leave it.
DrJones Wrote:If your purpose is to learn all readings, the order is far from optimal.By "all readings" you mean jouyou + non-jouyou readings?
DrJones Wrote:Heisig users also use a wacky order to learn the kanji, but that's because the goal is to learn all of them. By ordering for frequency, you lose all the benefits of learning the readings using a logical order (by minimizing the number of "building blocks" at each step, and exposing the patterns that give internal consistency to the japanese script).Sorry, could you explain in detail what you mean by "logical order"?
DrJones Wrote:The tool isn't as helpful as it could be, because it explicitly avoids to tell the user any relation that can exist between words and between kanji.I don't understand what you mean when you mention the relation between word and kanji. Do you mean between meaning of the word and meaning of the kanji?
DrJones Wrote:For example, using this tool the user will know that 図 is read sometimes ず and sometimes と, but will not know how to differenciate between the two readings.Do you mean that the user will not know which of the readings to use when he sees a new word containing this kanji? This, unfortunately, doesn't have any other solution than learning every word one by one.
iiKanji aims at allowing you to learn the building blocks (jouyou readings) as quickly as possible so that you can use them to memorize new words more easily.
DrJones Wrote:Knowing that 図 is read と could also be helpful to learn the reading of 斗, but the tool doesn't let you see that relation, so it takes longer time to learn, more "brain space", and makes it easier to forget (because there is one less "anchor" to remember the reading).I tried using the radicals as an anchor to learn the readings of the kanji using RTK2, and it didn't work for me. There were too many exceptions. That's why I came up with iiKanji.
DrJones Wrote:The tool is redundant and ambiguous because it strictly limits itself one reading per flashcard, even when two would be better (this is also a mistake that Heisig does). 夜 can be read よ and よる and have the same meaning, there's no penalty in learning the two readings at the same time, however you create a trouble by having each reading in a different flashcard. Even when there's no risk of confusion, merging flashcards as for example 語る and 語り would kill two birds with one stone.Limiting ourselves to one reading per flashcard is the core idea of the method.
I think that merging phonetically similar readings for a given kanji would not be beneficial (ie, ゆれる ゆらぐ ゆるい and the others for 揺), but let me know if you find some for which you think it would definitely be beneficial.
DrJones Wrote:The tool also includes plenty of rare readings for words that you'll likely never meet in a japanese text, ...Rare readings only appear in rare words. If you want to learn up to the rarest jouyou kanji/readings, you will inevitably have to deal with rare words.
DrJones Wrote:...while there are a lot of words that are commonly used but whose kanji is no longer used and/or not on the listCould you illustrate with an example, please? I think I'm not following you.
DrJones Wrote:If the purpose is maximizing the amount of japanese text you are able to read at a given point, this tool would have better results if it didn't restrict itself to the jouyou and all its readings.The jouyou readings of the jouyou kanji give a coverage of 94% of all Japanese words. I personally think it is not a bad coverage at all.
If you want to actually read Japanese texts, you will inevitably come across some words which do not have jouyou readings (the remaining 6%). To deal with it, we are considering to slip in some frequent words whose readings are ateji just to increase this percentage a bit more.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - fugu68 - 2013-10-29
#58 has a mistake in it: sentence is モンゴルにはこれから何度も行くことになりそうである。 but the word prompt is 何月
A requested feature: would it be possible to have an option in settings to hide the English translation of the keyword altogether? (Or show it just on the answer card.) Having the English on the question card is distracting for me...
I would also vote for the option of quickly excluding a large number of already known kanji, to make it more appealing to more advanced users.
Otherwise, it's a very nice tool.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Daichi - 2013-10-30
There should be an internal way to submit feedback about a particular question number. You shouldn't have to read a forum for stuff like "#X is wrong or unclear, it should be...", would be easier to just click a button to provide feedback for the current question you are on.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-30
Daichi Wrote:There should be an internal way to submit feedback about a particular question number. You shouldn't have to read a forum for stuff like "#X is wrong or unclear, it should be...", would be easier to just click a button to provide feedback for the current question you are on.You can, you can email them directly using the message button that appears on each page (little envelope in a blue square)
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Taoromera - 2013-10-30
fugu68 Wrote:#58 has a mistake in it: sentence is モンゴルにはこれから何度も行くことになりそうである。 but the word prompt is 何月Thanks, it has been fixed.
fugu68 Wrote:A requested feature: would it be possible to have an option in settings to hide the English translation of the keyword altogether? (Or show it just on the answer card.) Having the English on the question card is distracting for me...Sure. We will add it to our TODO list and prioritize it if more people ask for the same feature.
fugu68 Wrote:I would also vote for the option of quickly excluding a large number of already known kanji, to make it more appealing to more advanced users.This is something we are working on.
fugu68 Wrote:Otherwise, it's a very nice tool.Glad you like it
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - Daichi - 2013-10-30
ktcgx Wrote:What I mean, is you can make that feedback more obviously linked to the question in front of the person if needed. You can even do a little dropdown and categorize feedback or comment: "Comment on current question #, Site Feedback, Feature suggestions, etcetera...". But anyway, just a friendly thought. Your feedback system, not mine.Daichi Wrote:There should be an internal way to submit feedback about a particular question number. You shouldn't have to read a forum for stuff like "#X is wrong or unclear, it should be...", would be easier to just click a button to provide feedback for the current question you are on.You can, you can email them directly using the message button that appears on each page (little envelope in a blue square)
As already mentioned, this site really needs keyboard input. More specifically input that allows for one handed on boths side of the keyboard, where your left hand rests for typing and also with the right hand on the numpad. I'd also prefer each key to do separate things (show answer, remembered, forgot, already mastered). I have a bad habit of double tapping keys, and I don't want to forward myself to the next question on accident. (I have an Anki plugin that keeps me from answering questions with my show answer key.)
It would be nice if I could get a pseudo spreadsheet view where I can just quickly mark everything I already know.
Anyway, it's a neat little app.
iiKanji: learning the readings of the kanji - ktcgx - 2013-10-30
Daichi Wrote:I think the specific feedback (which is only needed during beta testing) might be too much trouble, but I honestly know nothing about coding...ktcgx Wrote:What I mean, is you can make that feedback more obviously linked to the question in front of the person if needed. You can even do a little dropdown and categorize feedback or comment: "Comment on current question #, Site Feedback, Feature suggestions, etcetera...". But anyway, just a friendly thought. Your feedback system, not mine.Daichi Wrote:There should be an internal way to submit feedback about a particular question number. You shouldn't have to read a forum for stuff like "#X is wrong or unclear, it should be...", would be easier to just click a button to provide feedback for the current question you are on.You can, you can email them directly using the message button that appears on each page (little envelope in a blue square)
As already mentioned, this site really needs keyboard input. More specifically input that allows for one handed on boths side of the keyboard, where your left hand rests for typing and also with the right hand on the numpad. I'd also prefer each key to do separate things (show answer, remembered, forgot, already mastered). I have a bad habit of double tapping keys, and I don't want to forward myself to the next question on accident. (I have an Anki plugin that keeps me from answering questions with my show answer key.)
It would be nice if I could get a pseudo spreadsheet view where I can just quickly mark everything I already know.
Anyway, it's a neat little app.
But I agree about the keyboard thing!! It would be so useful ^_^