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An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - PkmnTrainerAbram - 2013-09-23
Doing RTK and vocab decks in addition to reading.
I am finding it is becoming harder and harder for me to write out kanji exactly from memory with the more vocab I am accumulating and solidfiying with reading.
I started altering my learning routine for my vocab deck with "1 10 60" to help get more reviews in for new words, and for the most part, it helps, though there are vocab that just will not stick, but that's normal I guess.
When I go to review my RTK, I can barely recall any perfectly but it's ALOT easier when reading to break up kanji by each piece. The thing is, I don't remember any of the stories anymore and have forgotten the names of alot of elements, which I guess was going to happen eventually, but I have rarely any moments when doing vocab where I think "This is the kanji for FIRE and MOUNTIAN so it means VOLCANO". I just get used to the shape of the word and then see the elements that make up the kanji.
So I did the "1 10 60" setting for learning mode this morning and just...I dunno. I don't think I can do it that way with RTK. With vocab, I get repetetion with the sounds and text so it's easier to get through and absorb. With just kanji, I dunno if it would be just better to just......read.
I don't have much issue with scanning words, I feel comfortable with kanji, it's just my lack of vocab and ability to write perfectly from memory that bother me and I'm wondering if I should change it up or something.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - NightSky - 2013-09-23
Is ability to write perfectly from memory really that important to you? We all have different priorities but I would have thought learning more vocab was more important than that. I've almost never had to write Kanji by hand after years living in Japan.
If you feel comfortable with Kanji already I'd ditch RTK and focus on more vocab, you will get enough Kanji exposure that way anyway to pick up their readings and start seeing them in new words easily.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - PotbellyPig - 2013-09-23
If you want to be able to write the words, you need to practice production. Create a production version of a subset of your anki cards (you can do english->kanji with some hints to avoid synonyms or some other format). Everyone likes to do recognition because it is faster and easier to learn but if your goal is production you have to practice it. I use iKnow! for the first 6000 words which is production based. I write out each word alot of times. For the remaining ~4,000 words in Core 10K and vocabulary I find in books I use recognition anki cards for speed sake.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - PkmnTrainerAbram - 2013-09-23
Just to clarify, it's been 3 months since I finished the RTK book. I didn't work on an RTK Anki deck at the same time so I'm about 1600 kanji in a 3000 card deck that covers RTK 3 kanji as well.
There was a point in which I did just write out vocab straight from the vocab deck and neglected writing out the RTK deck kanji, but at that time it didn't do much for my kanji recall(not that now is much better overall).
I use the Cloze Delete Core 6k deck, so I thought I was using a production deck. I'm at a point where I can recall the word easier than the kanji, but my knowledge of the kanji that makes up those words is by no means bad and IS improving.
Are there other things I could be doing to aid this problem? I'm certianly reading.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - PotbellyPig - 2013-09-23
If your problem is just writing, you can use Skritter to practice writing. It costs money though. I used it after I ran through RTK 1. Since then, I don't study the kanji by themselves anymore and just use words. I write down the ones that I do via iKnow! each day.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - uisukii - 2013-09-23
nukemarine's optimized core deck by default demands a form of output, and you can write out your answers. this would in effect force you to be able to write out vocab and kanji from memory. there are many other ways. this is just and easy and free way which little effort on the user end.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-23
Usually the problem with going keyword->kanji after you're done with RTK and learning lots of vocab is that the keywords get muddled with the English translations of all the vocabulary you're learning and it's harder to think of the right character and the stories don't always hold up so well when it's months between reviews.
I'd stop quizzing on simply keyword->kanji, and maybe add hints to indicate the right sense of the keyword, and quiz keyword+hints->kanji,
or put the story on the front side and quiz keyword+story->kanji,
or (and this is what I'm doing) change all the keywords to Japanese keywords where the word uses the kanji you need. (If it's close in meaning to the original keyword you can keep your story too, but sometimes you might not be able to. You can make a new story if you can't recall the kanji from the word alone.)
You could even phase out RTK and start suspending every RTK card for a kanji that you have in your vocabulary deck. You may as mentioned want to find another way to practice writing in this case.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - muteki99 - 2013-09-23
If this is lower retention long after finishing RTK and well into vocabulary I have experienced this as well. Many times I'll have a better shot at remembering a particular kanji by thinking of a vocab word it is in rather than a RTK keyword.
But that's kinda the point isn't it? To better facilitate your learning of vocabulary by attaching meanings to the characters themselves first. I fully expect my RTK retention to drop off significantly over time but as long as my vocab rates are good I don't really care.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - ktcgx - 2013-09-23
You could add a field in anki for you to put the rtk keywords of the compound in. I found that was helpful for me...
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - Haych - 2013-09-23
I like keeping a grip on the keywords, personally. Theoretically, they are the only thing keeping up my ability to write words despite never actually writing. The idea is that, as long as I can remember the keywords, my keyword -> kanji reps ensure I can actually write it. But I'm not like you with vocab, because I consistently make sure I can recall the keywords during vocab reps (well OK to be fair maybe I'll gloss over them during subsequent reps, but at least for new cards I do it 100% of the time). I think its a good thing to do to aid with subtle distinctions as well. Case in point: 授受. Similar kanji. Directly opposite meaning.
But I like Chris' advice of adding more links to vocab. The RTK deck I got off anki has example kunyomi and onyomi so that helps as you get further on. Also, with some post-rtk3 kanji that are really only useful for 1 word, I've started to just refer to them directly by that word. E.g. 蜘蛛 -> 蜘 spider1 蛛 spider2, 饂飩 ->饂 udon1, 飩 udon2, 蹌踉めく -> 蹌 yoromeku1, 踉 yoromeku2. It's pretty easy to come up with a story for both at once when you do it like this, too.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - PkmnTrainerAbram - 2013-09-24
If it matters, the deck I use for RTK doesn't have the readings. Maybe it would help if I switch to that deck instead? I'd be bummed about losing all my progress in the current deck but clearly, my mind is telling me that studying kanji in pure isolation with vocab is not working.
I'm using the learning mode to drill new vocab in ruthlessly and I've had the same vocab in the learning pile for days now. Some are definitely forming relations in my brain and others won't stick no matter how many times I see them.
My goal is to read anything in Japanese and be able to commute via text online and speaking, but speaking isn't so important to me as the other two right now. I just want to be able to read at a comfotable clip is all.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - Haych - 2013-09-24
I agree, tossing the whole deck would be a bit too radical. I say you should just add hints for the more difficult items in your existing deck. Just add stuff like readings, vocab, and maybe some more hints for the meaning. Just add another field to your template for hints and make it show up on the front.
Also, apparently you can do a dedicated hint field where it only displays if you hit a certain key. I think its just an option you include in the display template. If you want something even easier you could put your story in a hint field like that.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - PkmnTrainerAbram - 2013-09-27
I think I may have been doing Core Production all wrong, and that's why the new vocab past 1000 hasn't been sticking. As long as I knew the sound of the word I would pass it, even if the kanji was a bit fuzzy. I guess that helped a bit, but apparently it was flawed for me.
I haven't been able to clear my Learning pile in a week and I've been doing Anki every other day(300 something reviews due every 2 days, only being able to clear 180-250 in 50-82 minutes), but I am finding that it's easier to remember certain words I've had problems with saying and writing when doing so. This is what they call the "Forgetting Index" right? Where a break in studying makes the connection in your brain stronger? Maybe I'll do RTK and vocab separately every other day or something and see what happens.
I don't think I can go back to stories using RTK. I think that part of my life is over.<_<
EDIT: If I'm going to add readings and such to my already exsisting RTK deck, I may as well download the one with the readings already in it.
An issue with RTK and vocab I'm having....opinons? - ryanjmack - 2013-09-27
PkmnTrainerAbram Wrote:This is what they call the "Forgetting Index" right? Where a break in studying makes the connection in your brain stronger? Maybe I'll do RTK and vocab separately every other day or something and see what happens.I don't know if it's called the forgetting index but I know what you mean. I'm almost at the end of tae kim's essential and I noticed I was trying to learn too much grammar too quickly (1 chapter a day nonstop). It's been a week now since I went through the last chapter; my reviews are going down and what I have learned is really starting to stick. Now I'll do a couple more sections in TK and then go back to vocab for a couple days.
It isn't a bad idea to break up your studies and routine a little bit. It definitely helps out a lot in solidifying what you learn and rounding out your studies.
PkmnTrainerAbram Wrote:I don't think I can go back to stories using RTK. I think that part of my life is over.<_<You made it pretty far in RTK, and at this point it isn't absolutely necessary for you to finish up. In hindsight I feel doing RTK lite would have been sufficient. The problem I have now is when I learn vocab I can't recall kanji-->keyword to help derive meanings from new vocab. I switched the format of my RTK deck to kanji-->keyword to help with this. However I make sure I get my writing practice in when I learn new vocab by writing them down.
Also I found that writing kanji from an english keyword was much harder after I started learning vocab.