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+--- Thread: Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? (/thread-11164.html)
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - ktcgx - 2014-10-31
Ok, my google-fu finally kicked in a bit and he has:
Spanish C2
French C1 or C2
German B1 (just missed the C2 pass, apparently)
According to the other poster, I'm going to assume his Portuguese is at least C2.
But his site is very badly laid out, and it's really hard to find info on his certifications.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - TsugiAshi - 2014-11-01
Wall of text incoming:
I'm a fan of his blog. I've read a lot of the articles on his blog and I know he isn't speaking about native-level fluency. Then again, though, neither am I. I'm just speaking on fluency as a concept, alongside several other people. It's just an interesting concept to discuss imo.
And again there's the issue of Benny neglecting his languages for years after learning them for only three months. I believe what he would have learned will have drastically slipped, and I don't believe that what he learns in three months is ever anywhere near fluency in the first place.
I disagree that my use of fluency mirrors how Benny is using it. I just take on a more stricter definition of a source like dictionary.com because of how I think fluency should be seen.
dictionary.com Wrote:adjectiveI'm talking about full fluency which encampasses every aspect of a language, though. What wiki's definition of fluency seems to refer to is what I would consider to be spoken-word fluency, which excludes a lot of the other aspects of a language. When people generally discuss fluency, I just assume that spoken-word fluency is what they're referring to. Although I do actually accept that as fluency in the sense of just being fluency, but not something necessarily achievable in three or four months.
1.
spoken or written with ease:
fluent French.
2.
able to speak or write smoothly, easily, or readily:
a fluent speaker; fluent in six languages.
But as I mentioned earlier it's difficult to really discuss fluency as anything truly concrete because it doesn't seem to share a standard/accepted definition, which is why I think people see and use the concept of fluency as something subjective.
Don't get me wrong, I can read every kana fairly smoothly, with only a minimal pause on some of the ones that have the quotation marks that change the base sound. Similarly, I can look at a passage written in kana and write it out properly nearly as quickly as I can the English alphabet. I'm only speaking on the aspect of being able to write the kana stroke-by-stroke from just memory without any points of reference. The ability to spontaneously produce something fluidly and easily from nothing. That, imo, is a major aspect of fluency.
At the same time, I think vocab acquisition can fall in line with that, too, because you'd have to produce a particular word in context while having a conversation. Probably not quite as difficult as writing something, but it still requires the mind to be able to grasp at the word or phrase fairly quickly and in proper context, which can take a while of consistent long-term exposure to achieve, particularly for use in spontaneous conversation.
Lol, and I apologize if anything I said came off as a psychological plea for help. I didn't intend for it come off that way. It's more of a misinterpretation on your part. Kind of funny actually. I don't have any frustrations towards language learning or to Benny's blog, tbh. I read a new article every time he posts one. It's been really helpful in my language-learning actually and I'd recommend his blog to anyone.
I'm just discussing the concept of fluency, what I think fluency is alongside what other people think fluency is, etc.
I don't think that everyone who picks up a language sooner is a charlatan. I don't think that Benny is a charlatan, nor did I ever say that (I think). I just said that I don't consider him to be a polyglot, and I don't consider him to be fluent in probably anything other than two languages.
Not sure why you're assuming all these random personal inferences about me from what I'm talking about. My Japanese study is just fine, and I was using my experience with kana as a point of comparison to describe the spontaneous production of something that has been ingrained into someone's long-term memory through consistent exposure.
It just seems like you're more interested in attacking me personally in defense of Benny than you are in looking at the concept of fluency and discussing that with me, almost like I've touched a nerve with you or something because I criticized a particular aspect about Benny Lewis, and you didn't seem to like it.
But believe it or not, someone can like someone and their work while also disagreeing with their usage of certain concepts.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - ktcgx - 2014-11-01
TsugiAshi, I'm not defending Benny. But I don't think you were being fair to him. You kept saying he was fluent in two languages at most, which is not the case. Your tone came across as highly dismissive.
And your post most definitely come across as "well if I can't do it, no one else can". Especially when you were dismissive of the experiences of the Brazilian who posted in this thread.
I certainly didn't attack you personally. I took the tone of your posts and the fact that you stated you couldn't write the *kana* from memory after a year as you implying your study wasn't going very well.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - TsugiAshi - 2014-11-04
I wasn't necessarily being unfair. I'm not critical of his language learning method, nor his site or anything like that. I'm only criticizing the amount of time he spends dedicated to each individual language coupled with the fact that he speaks about how he doesn't study the languages much after those three months.
So you have a person who goes at a language hard for a short amount of time, and then basically quits the language studies/reviews after that point for years, going on to the next and repeating the process. It's more or less biting off more than you can chew, and then biting more off.
He even has an article about how he was on a 3 month mission to "level up" 10 or 12 languages that he had let go for years. How much can you level up 12 languages in 3 months? Particularly when you read some of the experiences people have here with their single language reviews, study, and use after taking several months to a year off.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - ktcgx - 2014-11-04
I'm not interested in getting interested in a discussion about Benny with anyone, to be frank. I took issue with you repeating words to the effect of "he's fluent in two languages at best" implying that he was being dishonest about being able to get to a high level in others.
Good luck with your study.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - yogert909 - 2014-11-04
TsugiAshi Wrote:I don't know how you can criticize the amount of time someone spends learning a language. Benny's whole goal seems to be to travel the world speaking to people in their native tongues. If that is indeed his goal, I'd say he's accomplishing that goal. Of course that may not be what you or I are after, but I don't expect my shoes to fit Benny either.ktcgx Wrote:I wasn't necessarily being unfair. I'm not critical of his language learning method, nor his site or anything like that. I'm only criticizing the amount of time he spends dedicated to each individual language coupled with the fact that he speaks about how he doesn't study the languages much after those three months.
So you have a person who goes at a language hard for a short amount of time, and then basically quits the language studies/reviews after that point for years, going on to the next and repeating the process. It's more or less biting off more than you can chew, and then biting more off.
He even has an article about how he was on a 3 month mission to "level up" 10 or 12 languages that he had let go for years. How much can you level up 12 languages in 3 months? Particularly when you read some of the experiences people have here with their single language reviews, study, and use after taking several months to a year off.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - TsugiAshi - 2014-11-05
ktcgx Wrote:I'm not interested in getting interested in a discussion about Benny with anyone, to be frank. I took issue with you repeating words to the effect of "he's fluent in two languages at best" implying that he was being dishonest about being able to get to a high level in others.Again, like your initial reply to me, you misinterpreted my post. I specifically said that he was able to get a higher level in his other languages and any language that he chooses to study using his own method. I just think that he needs to spend more time employing his learning method when learning the individual languages, alongside spending smaller amounts of consistent time in the long-term maintaining the languages that he's already learned so that they don't get away from him, and so that his skills in them don't slip.
Good luck with your study.
I even implied that his skill in some languages could be interpreted as being a high level. However, I also said that having a high level in a language doesn't necessarily equate to being legitimate fluency.
At best, I consider him to be dishonest or ignorant about being fluent and a polyglot in a lot of his languages due to the reasons that I described, and in relation to what I think that fluency is/should be.
yogert909 Wrote:I don't know how you can criticize the amount of time someone spends learning a language. Benny's whole goal seems to be to travel the world speaking to people in their native tongues. If that is indeed his goal, I'd say he's accomplishing that goal. Of course that may not be what you or I are after, but I don't expect my shoes to fit Benny either.I'm criticizing a specific and short amount of time learning a language, alongside other factors, in relation to fluency. It isn't just criticizing a language learner's time spent studying for the sake of criticizing their language studies.
If someone asked me for language learning advice and said that they wanted to become fluent in 2 weeks of language learning and then quitting forever, I would most likely tell them that that method might not be efficient enough for the goal that they're trying to achieve.
As an example, the above would be criticizing the amount of time that someone spends learning a language in proportion to their realistic goals in said language. It's constructive in that regard.
I know what Benny's goal is and I'm glad he's doing it. It's a nice and admiral goal. Being able to speak languages and get in touch with other cultures is wholly great for bringing people together and truly understanding each other. I'd say that he's accomplishing his goal, too.
However, that doesn't mean he's fluent in every language that he studies, which is what I and others were discussing, lol.