+- kanji koohii FORUM (http://forum.koohii.com)
+-- Forum: Learning Japanese (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-4.html)
+--- Forum: General discussion (http://forum.koohii.com/forum-8.html)
+--- Thread: Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? (/thread-11164.html)
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - NightSky - 2013-12-02
REH94 Wrote:Even if he had used a single grammar point that was 3rd year it wouldn't really be very important, there are probably very many 1st year ones he still doesn't know because hes not studying through the same material in the same order.raharney Wrote:This is second to third year stuff for university learners.Genki II is first year, second semester Japanese (at both my 'home' university and the equivalent at my Japanese university). Maybe it is different where you are, but I think 'third year' is another "tad of hyperbole."
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - Vempele - 2013-12-02
raharney Wrote:This is second to third year stuff for university learners. (I think ~そうとする form is covered in Genki II, not I, for example).That was second week stuff for me (and よ would be second week for anyone doing Tae Kim at 1 lesson/day). Some things you can just learn whenever.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - raharney - 2013-12-02
Vempele Wrote:There is always a lag between what you learn and when you start using it.raharney Wrote:This is second to third year stuff for university learners. (I think ~そうとする form is covered in Genki II, not I, for example).That was second week stuff for me (and よ would be second week for anyone doing Tae Kim at 1 lesson/day). Some things you can just learn whenever.
I read someone once saying that it took him a year before he stopped using "watashi wa" all the time in sentences. Sure, we all learn よ early on but it takes a while before learners start using it instinctively.
BTW, same with the third person singular 's' in English. People learn it on day one but it will still trip them up constantly even at intermediate level.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - nadiatims - 2013-12-02
He's not bad at using what he has learnt. But it remains to be seen how much he has actually learnt. Hard to judge without seeing a more 2 way conversation or higher level task. eg. 5 minute video explaining his opinion on some topic (language learning even) or has someone interview him (ie. he has to understand the questions).
wrt his pronunciation, I think it just goes to show he is not really used to hearing and understanding these words intuitively, rather he is using effort to remember something he has learnt (recently perhaps) from some resource. Not that my pronunciation was any better after 3 months. For all I know it could have been worse. But isn't spanish supposed to have almost the same vowels as japanese? and German has the the う (correct me if I'm wrong). So you'd think pronunciation wise it would be easy for him.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - vonPeterhof - 2013-12-02
nadiatims Wrote:...and German has the the う (correct me if I'm wrong)...If Wikipedia is to be believed, the only other known languages where this sound is present are (some dialects of) Swedish and Norwegian.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - gaiaslastlaugh - 2013-12-02
nadiatims Wrote:wrt his pronunciation, I think it just goes to show he is not really used to hearing and understanding these words intuitively, rather he is using effort to remember something he has learnt (recently perhaps) from some resource.It also sounds like he's nervous and focusing more on making meaning than on pronunciation. I still do this sometimes when I get flustered in conversation - my otherwise good Japanese pronunciation goes out the window, and I sound quite American.
He's doing well. And I admire the mission to show how much can be learned in a dedicated period of time. But he won't be "fluent" in three months by any standard definition of "fluency". I think of "fluency" as the ability to discourse smoothly on a variety of topics of arbitrary complexity. That requires years of dedicated work.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - wulfgar2 - 2013-12-07
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Hmm... his 'accent' is getting worse.I agree, but for me it's his rhythm that's all messed up; takes an effort to follow him, even though it's really simple material. He made a major mistake with Mandarin pronunciation too, and never fixed it. Most if not all of the polyglots that really impress me consciously work on pronunciation from the beginning. Benny doesn't.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - Splatted - 2013-12-07
wulfgar2 Wrote:Well it's inevitable that those who focus on pronunciation are going to sound more impressive than those who don't, but it's still only a small (very challenging) part of an extremely large subject and I think we should bear that in mind. It's always tempting to dismiss someone who has very poor pronunciation as being bad at the language, but I think you'll miss out on a lot of good advice if you do.SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Hmm... his 'accent' is getting worse.I agree, but for me it's his rhythm that's all messed up; takes an effort to follow him, even though it's really simple material. He made a major mistake with Mandarin pronunciation too, and never fixed it. Most if not all of the polyglots that really impress me consciously work on pronunciation from the beginning. Benny doesn't.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-12-07
My point wasn't really that his accent was thick (though it is), but rather that he was pronouncing things wrongly. I phrased it as I did because I think they are related issues. He's not worry about pronunciation, and so his accent is thick (which is acceptable) and he's also using wrong vowels (which isn't). If he gets wrong vowels, wrong vowel-lengths, or missed glottal stops, he's making mispronunciations that go beyond accent and require serious active thinking on the part of the listener to figure out what he was actually trying to say, and no small risk of actual misunderstanding when the mispronunciation is actually a word that fits the context.
And yes, he's making very good progress for the amount of days he's been studying, but about average progress for the amount of hours he's been studying, if he's been actively studying 8 hours a day as I believe he has. No question though that he's putting in a serious effort.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - Bokusenou - 2013-12-08
You know, I used to think the person in the Mr. James commercials had bad pronunciation, until I saw Bennie's videos. With Mr. James I could at least understand him, bad gaijin caricature that he is, but Bennie is much harder to understand, and it'll really affect how people view him.
I guess there's no hope he'll work on pronunciation a little...
He has improved in terms of grammar and such though.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - nadiatims - 2013-12-08
pretty sure the guy in that video is a decent japanese speaker who is just hamming it up for the camera. He says the tongue twister in the middle fine.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - Northern_Lord - 2013-12-08
vonPeterhof Wrote:Norwegian and Swedish u is pretty close, yes.nadiatims Wrote:...and German has the the う (correct me if I'm wrong)...If Wikipedia is to be believed, the only other known languages where this sound is present are (some dialects of) Swedish and Norwegian.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - wulfgar2 - 2013-12-10
Splatted Wrote:Well it's inevitable that those who focus on pronunciation are going to sound more impressive than those who don't, but it's still only a small (very challenging) part of an extremely large subject and I think we should bear that in mind.Bear it in mind for what purpose? Is it wrong to point out that his pronunciation is bad enough to make the listener work to follow it? Are you asking us not to criticize his pronunciation so that we can be impressed by his grammar and vocabulary?
Splatted Wrote:It's always tempting to dismiss someone who has very poor pronunciation as being bad at the language, but I think you'll miss out on a lot of good advice if you do.What advice will I be missing out on? The advice that allowed him to reach such a high level in a short time?
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - wulfgar2 - 2013-12-14
The 3 months are over. Curious to see how he did.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - JunePin - 2013-12-15
I think he already posted on his site saying there will be no 3 month video, but some day in the future you can see videos of him and see how well he did after 3 months.
Quote:I am sorry if any of you who were waiting for “the” final udpate video over the next days! I’ve always said that the purpose of these 3 month projects has never been to lead up to ONE video. I’ve never had “the” 3-month video; since these projects were always about preparing for improved cultural immersion. I’m not passionate about learning languages, I’m passionate about using them! My “final” video, is generally one after I’ve had a chance to explore the country first.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - Vempele - 2013-12-15
wulfgar2 Wrote:The 3 months are over. Curious to see how he did.2 week shift in project end due to illness
A 2-week extension due to one week of illness. Hope his Japanese will be better than his math.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - Rusty - 2013-12-15
I have to admit I find this guy somewhat inspirational. Not so much because of whether he got to fluency in three months (I could care less) but because he reminded me that the goal of my language learning is to communicate and that to do that you have to be brave. Worrying too much about your mistakes just leads to paralysis, at least in my case. So often I find myself saying nothing because I know I am getting it wrong. But Benny has no fear and as a result he probably communicates a million times better than I did at his stage. Definitely a lesson for me here.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - ryuudou - 2013-12-15
JunePin Wrote:I think he already posted on his site saying there will be no 3 month video, but some day in the future you can see videos of him and see how well he did after 3 months.That's a very long winded way of saying that his Japanese is bad and this was mostly a publicity stunt aimed at ad money from Youtube.
Quote:I am sorry if any of you who were waiting for “the” final udpate video over the next days! I’ve always said that the purpose of these 3 month projects has never been to lead up to ONE video. I’ve never had “the” 3-month video; since these projects were always about preparing for improved cultural immersion. I’m not passionate about learning languages, I’m passionate about using them! My “final” video, is generally one after I’ve had a chance to explore the country first.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - TheViking - 2013-12-15
Quote:That's a very long winded way of saying that his Japanese is bad and this was mostly a publicity stunt aimed at ad money from Youtube.And his 3 month language "hack" scheme just went from 3 months to 4 months(Dec16 to Jan11). Sick or not Dec16+14=Dec30, not Jan11.
If i could put the time he had into Japanese, i would start with core6k. Considering it took me 2,5h/Day for a month to learn 1500words. It should take maybe 1month - 1,5months to finish Core6 if you did it full time. After 6000 simple sentences it should be easy to also speak simple japanese(with some grammatical errors).
I would then use the remaining time to mature cards and focus on native material, and in his case, speaking aswell.
I'm not impressed so far.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - qwertyytrewq - 2013-12-15
It has been 3 months. His goal was to "hack" the Japanese language after the 3 months.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(computer_security)
Quote:In the computer security context, a hacker is someone who seeks and exploits weaknesses in a computer system or computer network. Hackers may be motivated by a multitude of reasons, such as profit, protest, or challenge.In the language learning context, Benny is someone who seeks and exploits weaknesses in a language system or language network. Benny may be motivated by a multitude of reasons, such as profit, protest, or challenge.
I don't care about why. I want to ask about how.
Quote:other uses of the word hacker exist that are not related to computer security, such as referring to someone with an advanced understanding of computers and computer networksRelating to language learning, I assume that Benny is now someone with an advanced (fluent) understanding of Japanese.
BENNY LEWIS: FLUENT IN 3 MONTHS? An analysis of Benny.
Koohii Forum Assignment/Project (1-30 minutes)
Due date: When you finish writing.
For the benefit of future and current learners of Japanese who wish to hack the Japanese language system, explain in detail EXACTLY how Benny managed to (or did not manage to) hack Japanese and the results he has to show for it. The questions you should be asking yourself as you write can include:
-What is Benny's goal?
-What did Benny do?
-How did Benny do it?
-Was Benny successful or unsuccessful?
The format you can present your findings can be an essay, thesis, report, article, diagrams/charts, formulas, stand-up comedy etc. Whichever you are comfortable with/specialize in.
In your writings, if you wish to bring up relevant keywords like "hack" (if it differs from Wikipedia's definition) and "fluent" (please cite the source of your definition, whether it's a dictionary or Benny), please define it beforehand.
In your conclusion, state whether his efforts and results can be replicated by fellow language learners. Why or why not? This question is important because the whole point of announcing and publicizing the 3 month hacking of Japanese is to show that it is easy/not hard to learn Japanese. You just have to "hack" it.
Marks: x out of 10 (whole numbers only). I will be doing the marking. Things I look for include a combination of good English such as grammar and correct punctuation (with leeway given to people who's native language is not English), detailed explanations and general effort.
The above question will be reposted in this thread if it is not answered satisfactorily by members of this forum. This thread has gone on for 3 months and 25 pages and we need something to show for it.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - raharney - 2013-12-15
HELP!!! ATTACK OF THE MIDDLE MANAGERS!
qwertyytrewq Wrote:It has been 3 months. His goal was to "hack" the Japanese language after the 3 months.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hack_(computer_security)
Quote:In the computer security context, a hacker is someone who seeks and exploits weaknesses in a computer system or computer network. Hackers may be motivated by a multitude of reasons, such as profit, protest, or challenge.In the language learning context, Benny is someone who seeks and exploits weaknesses in a language system or language network. Benny may be motivated by a multitude of reasons, such as profit, protest, or challenge.
I don't care about why. I want to ask about how.
Quote:other uses of the word hacker exist that are not related to computer security, such as referring to someone with an advanced understanding of computers and computer networksRelating to language learning, I assume that Benny is now someone with an advanced (fluent) understanding of Japanese.
BENNY LEWIS: FLUENT IN 3 MONTHS? An analysis of Benny.
Koohii Forum Assignment/Project (1-30 minutes)
Due date: When you finish writing.
For the benefit of future and current learners of Japanese who wish to hack the Japanese language system, explain in detail EXACTLY how Benny managed to (or did not manage to) hack Japanese and the results he has to show for it. The questions you should be asking yourself as you write can include:
-What is Benny's goal?
-What did Benny do?
-How did Benny do it?
-Was Benny successful or unsuccessful?
The format you can present your findings can be an essay, thesis, report, article, diagrams/charts, formulas, stand-up comedy etc. Whichever you are comfortable with/specialize in.
In your writings, if you wish to bring up relevant keywords like "hack" (if it differs from Wikipedia's definition) and "fluent" (please cite the source of your definition, whether it's a dictionary or Benny), please define it beforehand.
In your conclusion, state whether his efforts and results can be replicated by fellow language learners. Why or why not? This question is important because the whole point of announcing and publicizing the 3 month hacking of Japanese is to show that it is easy/not hard to learn Japanese. You just have to "hack" it.
Marks: x out of 10 (whole numbers only). I will be doing the marking. Things I look for include a combination of good English such as grammar and correct punctuation (with leeway given to people who's native language is not English), detailed explanations and general effort.
The above question will be reposted in this thread if it is not answered satisfactorily by members of this forum. This thread has gone on for 3 months and 25 pages and we need something to show for it.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-12-15
Well, that's surprising. At least with other languages his home videos featured some conversations. With Japanese, there hasn't been one everyday interaction that demonstrates he can understand what the other party is saying. And speaking is easy, especially with an insane accent. It's understanding what the other party is saying that's hard.
Just some normal stuff, like
"What's up? What'd you do last weekend?
"Eh, went to the beach, got a suntan, drank a beer."
So what happened? It's like he just gave up. Where's my inspiration? I demand inspiration.
Did Benny Lewis set out to prove that you can't learn Japanese in three months? If that was his intention, then he succeeded. A bit harder than Spanish, apparently.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - afterglowefx - 2013-12-15
Oh God how do I see you everywhere, Seeori? Now that your blog magically appears in its entirety in my inbox I don't think I ever actually make it over to your place anymore. You should work on that. Also thanks for the "everybody inevitably fails to learn this God-forsaken language" inspirational posts, I'm just starting to push into the no-man's land between JLPT 3 and 2 as we speak.
Anyway, with any reasonable definition of 'fluency' (i.e., any definition which does not skew the meaning so far as to outright break the word), I fail to see how one could achieve fluency in any language whatsoever, let alone one commonly regarded as one of the most difficult for Western learners, in a paltry three months. (The US State Dept.'s employees get double the amount of time they get for other languages to learn Japanese/Chinese, if it's any indication of the ease of Japanese.)
Anyway, he's doing fine for a beginner, but the man has promised fluency. After watching a couple of his videos, I'm fairly sure you could achieve the same results with Rosetta Stone. And Rosetta Stone is as close to language hacking as Microsoft Word is to actual hacking.
I'll also need to agree with the above about listening. I teach all day everyday in Japanese, but it's when the kids have a question that my ass gets handed to me. Ordering food at a restaurant? Piece of cake. Literally, give me that piece of cake. But ask me anything about the order and I'm stammering like an idiot. It definitely gets easier with time (and I only shit in my pants on an hourly basis now, as opposed to every other question), but the sort of time required just can't be ground down to 3 months. No way, no how.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - tokyostyle - 2013-12-16
afterglowefx Wrote:let alone one commonly regarded as one of the most difficult for Western learners, in a paltry three months.Don't confuse the extra time it takes to learn a writing system that is completely different from romance languages with difficulty. Benny is specifically focusing on speaking only thus the read/writing complexity is totally irrelevant.
Benny Lewis Fluent in Japanese in 3 months? - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-12-16
tokyostyle Wrote:No man, it's not irrelevant at all. You can quickly gain some ground in Japanese by ignoring the written language. I did the same thing. But later it comes back to bite you in the ass, because it's incredibly hard to build vocabulary without the kanji. Not only do you have to remember things using only kana or romaji or your brain, but you also miss the fact that so many words are related despite sounding utterly different. I'll spare you the lengthy list of examples featuring words based on kanji like 食 and 車.afterglowefx Wrote:let alone one commonly regarded as one of the most difficult for Western learners, in a paltry three months.Don't confuse the extra time it takes to learn a writing system that is completely different from romance languages with difficulty. Benny is specifically focusing on speaking only thus the read/writing complexity is totally irrelevant.
Basically, (as I can attest, having done it), you sacrifice a solid base (the kanji) for being able to speak a few phrases smoothly at the beginning. But later when you need to expand your vocabulary, you absolutely need the written language.