irishpolyglot Wrote:Do they at least give you a real spoken test in the N1? If not then I'm not interested in ever sitting these exams. Unless my answers are graded by a human being, and not a computer that scans which boxes I've ticked, then I'm not interested.

Vempele Wrote:Nope, it's all multiple-choice. But you don't tick boxes, you color circles in.

irishpolyglot Wrote:"No such thing. The JLPT is all multiple choice questions. It only tests vocabulary, grammar, reading and listening."

Are you kidding? I'm sorry, but my opinion of the JLPT has just gone down dramatically. In CEFRL exams you have to sit down with someone and speak to them, and this real human being gauges your level through a series of questions that test your ability to truly communicate. In my German one I had to discuss deforestation and was thrown questions by the speaker at random to make sure that I could defend my point of view, and construct particular sentences. In the Spanish one, I was essentially given a job interview.

And then for the aural component you listen but your answers have to demonstrate some level of comprehension and you write them out. While it's true that up to B2 levels the questions aren't very challenging, at least you have to actually produce them yourself, rather than maybe recognizing something in print form that you've heard and just ticking it.

Multiple choice is a really lazy way to create an exam that makes it scalable, but doesn't really test the individual student on subtle communication abilities that can't be so clear cut. I sat a GRE exam in America when I considered doing my post graduate studies there and the fact that the test was multiple choice just made me roll my eyes in how many ways this is a failure to truly test people. I didn't even have to do many of the mathematics problems because I could eliminate certain answers as just definitely wrong immediately and guestimate the right answer without having really done any true mathematics.

Do they at least give you a real spoken test in the N1? If not then I'm not interested in ever sitting these exams. Unless my answers are graded by a human being, and not a computer that scans which boxes I've ticked, then I'm not interested.

Multiple choice, lol... oh Japan...

Anyway, a homo sapien will be helping me demonstrate my spoken and listening abilities in January thank you very much

Thanks for the welcome!

irishpolyglot Wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree on the merits of the exam Zgarbas. I have a spoken focus in language learning, and this means of live communication and interactivity simply can't be tested via multiple choice. The use of multiple choice for a *language* just boggles my mind but in general I'm cynical of multiple choice exams anyway. Please note that I was by no means trying to imply that it was EASY - I mean that it's lazy for the examiner to create a test that way, simply because correcting it only takes a fraction of a second. Actually presenting the right answer could be the hardest thing in the world, so this doesn't take away from the tests difficulty. I'd definitely still fail it after my 3 months, and wouldn't claim otherwise. Your literacy prioritization puts you on the opposite end of the planet of language learning compared to my spoken focus, so we are bound to disagree on a lot.

I'm sure it tests the reading and grammar excellently, and if your goals are to demonstrate that then more power to you. But yes, if I'm to be honest I will continue to "diss an exam that people take quite seriously" because it's a language exam that doesn't test your ability to actually speak. I just can't get my head around that. It feels like someone's taking the piss to be honest...

I think you misunderstand the CEFRL tests if you think memorizing conversation patterns is what they are all about. I'm not sure what ones you've sat, I'm familiar with the French, German, Italian and Spanish ones. They have a very complex means of steering the conversation in directions that ensure you are being forced to use particular sentence structures or demonstrate understanding of various concepts.

Anyway, thanks for the very warm welcome everyone and sorry if my thoughts on the JLPT offend anyone! If I was to suggest testing your computer skills for an IT job, but give you a pencil and paper rather than a keyboard and a mouse, then you would understand my reaction to a language test that doesn't involve you actually use your mouth. Feel free to think "Benny is so wrong" - it happens a lot online

NightSky Wrote:I'm sorry but even in that video he says he wasn't interested in learning to read yet and only cared about speaking. And you think that the best way for him to study with that target in mind is to spend a whole month, so 1/3 of the entire time, memorizing keywords for Kanji symbols?

You are ridiculous.

EDIT - to add further, with your system its possible he could build a faster passive vocabulary but he is looking to SPEAK to a high level. For that, you need to practice speaking as much as possible. Thousands of flashcards isn't going to get the particular results that he is after here.

I'm quite sure a person can learn to speak quite well if they focus on that solely for 3 months. I'm looking forward to seeing his later videos and checking out his improvement.

irishpolyglot Wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree on the merits of the exam Zgarbas. I have a spoken focus in language learning, and this means of live communication and interactivity simply can't be tested via multiple choice. The use of multiple choice for a *language* just boggles my mind but in general I'm cynical of multiple choice exams anyway. Please note that I was by no means trying to imply that it was EASY - I mean that it's lazy for the examiner to create a test that way, simply because correcting it only takes a fraction of a second. Actually presenting the right answer could be the hardest thing in the world, so this doesn't take away from the tests difficulty. I'd definitely still fail it after my 3 months, and wouldn't claim otherwise. Your literacy prioritization puts you on the opposite end of the planet of language learning compared to my spoken focus, so we are bound to disagree on a lot.

I'm sure it tests the reading and grammar excellently, and if your goals are to demonstrate that then more power to you. But yes, if I'm to be honest I will continue to "diss an exam that people take quite seriously" because it's a language exam that doesn't test your ability to actually speak. I just can't get my head around that. It feels like someone's taking the piss to be honest...

I think you misunderstand the CEFRL tests if you think memorizing conversation patterns is what they are all about. I'm not sure what ones you've sat, I'm familiar with the French, German, Italian and Spanish ones. They have a very complex means of steering the conversation in directions that ensure you are being forced to use particular sentence structures or demonstrate understanding of various concepts.

Anyway, thanks for the very warm welcome everyone and sorry if my thoughts on the JLPT offend anyone! If I was to suggest testing your computer skills for an IT job, but give you a pencil and paper rather than a keyboard and a mouse, then you would understand my reaction to a language test that doesn't involve you actually use your mouth. Feel free to think "Benny is so wrong" - it happens a lot online

Hirakana Wrote:Most people know that the JLPT is deeply flawed, however it is the most widely recognized Japanese examination out there, so prospective (Japanese) employers or schools etc. will be looking for it.

irishpolyglot Wrote:@NightSky Note that I've never claimed to be C1 in Chinese. Search for "Honest evaluation of Benny's Mandarin" to see a blog post written by an independent Mandarin school in Beijing where they critiqued my level after spending hours with me. The conclusion was B1, which was lower than my goal but something I was happy with nonetheless.

irishpolyglot Wrote:Anyway, thanks for the very warm welcome everyone and sorry if my thoughts on the JLPT offend anyone! If I was to suggest testing your computer skills for an IT job, but give you a pencil and paper rather than a keyboard and a mouse, then you would understand my reaction to a language test that doesn't involve you actually use your mouth. Feel free to think "Benny is so wrong" - it happens a lot online

irishpolyglot Wrote:No, that's Tim Ferriss. I've interviewed him about language learning though. He knows Japanese already, and I'm starting from scratch today.

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:

Hirakana Wrote:Most people know that the JLPT is deeply flawed, however it is the most widely recognized Japanese examination out there, so prospective (Japanese) employers or schools etc. will be looking for it.

You know, maybe I'm being too particular here, but I don't feel the JLPT is flawed at all. If anything, I'd say it's a well thought-out and organized test.

It does what it's designed to do, which is to gauge a person's vocabulary and grammar knowledge, as well as test reading and listening capabilities. It's not a test of communication skill, or how well you can get your point across using a mixture of katakana, Japanglish, body language, and napkin drawings. It's a standardized test that allows a wide range of people from various language backgrounds to be measured on the same scale.

Which isn't to say that I like it. Only that, for what it sets out to accomplish, it does pretty well.

Sorry for going off on a tangent.

Hirakana Wrote:There aren't four answers to choose from when listening/reading in real life.

irishpolyglot Wrote:if I'm to be honest I will continue to "diss an exam that people take quite seriously" because it's a language exam that doesn't test your ability to actually speak. I just can't get my head around that. It feels like someone's taking the piss to be honest...

Hirakana Wrote:There aren't four answers to choose from when listening/reading in real life.

Zgarbas Wrote:

Hirakana Wrote:There aren't four answers to choose from when listening/reading in real life.

Whenever I have something that I'm not certain about I picture a multiple choice type exercise. E.g. I hear a homonym and I'm not 100% sure which one of the words it was, I just list them one by one till I find the one that's the best fit.

Quote:While there isn't a multiple choice reaction box underneath people when they make various comments, there is really only a somewhat limited dialogue pool to draw from, with a small variety of patterns- each with their own give a little, take a little limitations- as to which are generally inferred and understood by others.