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+--- Thread: How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? (/thread-11163.html)
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-09-18
Let me give you some background first. I've finished Core 10,000 a few months ago and also all the grammar through N1 (via Genki I/II, Tobira, Kanzen Master N2 & N1). I'm the type of person who likes to focus on one thing at a time. My first goal was to read light novels and it wasn't until I got near the end of Core 10000 that I even started reading. Since then I've read about 11-12 light novels and have become more and more comfortable reading. The issue at hand is that I have spent zero time practicing listening since it wasn't my first priority. I would like to start to get into it at this point. What would be the best way to do so?
I was thinking of using sub2srs to create an anki deck of an anime episode I like and start from there. If I do this, how long do you study an episode deck? Do you do it until you really get comfortable with the listenng in that episode and then drop the deck and then create a deck with another episode? Or do you keep reviewing it forever and just add episodes? Besides sub2srs are there any other resources I should use?
I look forward to getting any advice on my peculiar situation.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - Animosophy - 2013-09-18
You are wayy ahead of me, but I think I know a good way to improve listening comprehension based on my experience so far.
I find that when I visualise myself in the situation of a speaker (either being the speaker or being near them) while I listen to and shadow audio (core2k6k in my case), I'm able to understand the spoken sentences much quicker without an image for reference later, and the effort I spent on visualisation demonstrates its benefits very quickly.
I know this because I put the core6k sentences on shuffle when I commute and every one of the sentences I've learnt at that point makes sense to me either instantly or after 2 or 3 other sentences have passed. I would definitely be worse off without it.
I'm basically recommending you visualise.
HOWEVER, core10k + 12 LNs + up to N1 grammar?! Surely your grasp of Japanese is more than adequate to simply dive into Japanese TV (that's visualisation done for you) and continue reviewing old material.
What about speaking fluency? Aren't you interested in closing the gap between active and passive vocab?
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-18
If you've read a bunch of light novels, you're not a beginner, you've just neglected your listening.
I suggest, go through Erin's challenge, watch each video once without subtitles and then with subtitles. Replay segments where you have trouble catching all the words.
https://www.erin.ne.jp/jp/
Some of the 応用 skits can be a challenge to follow at first because it's basically full speed natural speech. The 基本 skits are more lesson paced and should be easy to follow.
Anyways, once you can follow Erin's adventures... well, you already read a bunch of light novels, surely some of them have been made into anime. Anyway, get yourself some anime and some Japanese subtitles and read along.
http://kitsunekko.net/subtitles/japanese/
I just watch with Japanese subtitles a lot; if I'm rewatching a show, I watch with no subtitles. Just make sure you're listening closely and not just reading.
(For me, I can tell I am, because if my subtitles are off or out of sync, I often don't notice until I hit a hard phrase and try to look down and realize the answer isn't there, heh.)
You can subs2srs if you want, but honestly, I wouldn't add any subs2srs cards as pure listening practice, I'd just watch stuff. You could add subs2srs cards for vocabulary that is new to you.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - ryanjmack - 2013-09-18
Animosophy Wrote:You are wayy ahead of me, but I think I know a good way to improve listening comprehension based on my experience so far.Interesting. How do you take the audio from your core deck and add it to your ipod?
I find that when I visualise myself in the situation of a speaker (either being the speaker or being near them) while I listen to and shadow audio (core2k6k in my case), I'm able to understand the spoken sentences much quicker without an image for reference later, and the effort I spent on visualisation demonstrates its benefits very quickly.
I know this because I put the core6k sentences on shuffle when I commute and every one of the sentences I've learnt at that point makes sense to me either instantly or after 2 or 3 other sentences have passed. I would definitely be worse off without it.
I'm basically recommending you visualise.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - Animosophy - 2013-09-18
ryanjmack Wrote:Interesting. How do you take the audio from your core deck and add it to your ipod?You can find the audio sentences on buonaparte's website, http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6840 -- find "Core 6000 iKnow"
Core2k + the first and second half of 6k are separated into individual folders. There are 3 .m3u playlists of 2000 sentences in each. I deleted all of the 30-sentence "step" playlists and kept the big ones to add them all together into a single playlist on my smartphone
easy
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - ryanjmack - 2013-09-18
Ah thanks Animosohpy!
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - Xanpakuto - 2013-09-18
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:If you've read a bunch of light novels, you're not a beginner, you've just neglected your listening.Wow by listening to the Erin challenges, I just realized how bad my listening is. How long did it take you to follow along? Does it get better over time?
I suggest, go through Erin's challenge, watch each video once without subtitles and then with subtitles. Replay segments where you have trouble catching all the words.
https://www.erin.ne.jp/jp/
Some of the 応用 skits can be a challenge to follow at first because it's basically full speed natural speech. The 基本 skits are more lesson paced and should be easy to follow.
Anyways, once you can follow Erin's adventures... well, you already read a bunch of light novels, surely some of them have been made into anime. Anyway, get yourself some anime and some Japanese subtitles and read along.
http://kitsunekko.net/subtitles/japanese/
I just watch with Japanese subtitles a lot; if I'm rewatching a show, I watch with no subtitles. Just make sure you're listening closely and not just reading.
(For me, I can tell I am, because if my subtitles are off or out of sync, I often don't notice until I hit a hard phrase and try to look down and realize the answer isn't there, heh.)
You can subs2srs if you want, but honestly, I wouldn't add any subs2srs cards as pure listening practice, I'd just watch stuff. You could add subs2srs cards for vocabulary that is new to you.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-09-18
The Erin's Challenge site looks good. I'm going look into it although it looks pretty tough at first glance. I downloaded some Japanese subs and will try that too. I thought I would use sub2srs in this way: Put just the screen capture on the front and play the audio. Then put the Japanese subtitle on the back. And then just cycle through the deck a couple of times until I get the hang of it The idea of just listening to the Core sentences is also a good idea. Are there any other audio programs/apps you can run on a ipod/iphone? I know there is an audio stream called JapaneseIpod101 but I think that is geared towards teach you words and grammar instead of pure listening practice like Erin's Challenge site can be used.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - s0apgun - 2013-09-18
Well that was interesting. I was expecting not to understand most of the 応用スキット but I understood them almost 100%. I would say I am at an intermediate level though. Keep it up everyone... apparently it gets easier when you least expect it.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-18
PotbellyPig Wrote:The Erin's Challenge site looks good. I'm going look into it although it looks pretty tough at first glance.Well, I threw up the Japanese page link because I know you can read Japanese, and that is more challenging. You can switch it so most of the text is in English if you prefer.
Quote:I downloaded some Japanese subs and will try that too. I thought I would use sub2srs in this way: Put just the screen capture on the front and play the audio. Then put the Japanese subtitle on the back. And then just cycle through the deck a couple of times until I get the hang of itYou can do that if you want, but the thing about making a deck for this case is... really, you already know all the language elements. You're just tuning your ear to pronunciation. It's not something that needs to be 'memorized' the way Anki is good for, it's something that needs to be 'adjusted to'. L-R methods as per buonoparte's thread and reading along with subtitles are the best ways I know to make that adjustment.
Quote:I know there is an audio stream called JapaneseIpod101 but I think that is geared towards teach you words and grammar instead of pure listening practice like Erin's Challenge site can be used.japanesepod101.com has a whole ton of lessons that are meant to teach you Japanese, but they also have separate sound files for just the dialogues which you can use for listening practice. While you're subscribed, you can also use a pretty decent interface for doing line-by-line listen-and-repeat of the dialogues, but to be honest, I'd only subscribe for a free trial or a first-try discount and just download everything in sight.
Value is relative, though. If I made over 60k/year (and didn't have kids to put through college soon, or over 100k/year if I did have kids to put through college) I'd just subscribe to jpod101 until I wasn't learning from it anymore.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-18
Xanpakuto Wrote:\It took me about 6 months do go from roughly where the OP is - able to read complex manga and light novels but not much listening practice - to being able to easily understand everything on Erin's challenge. That includes time watching subtitled doramas and anime as well, not just Erin's. At this point I almost always 'understand' what I hear in the sense of being able to transcribe it kana for kana, although I don't always understand in the sense of knowing every word or being able to choose the right kanji for what was said.
Wow by listening to the Erin challenges, I just realized how bad my listening is. How long did it take you to follow along? Does it get better over time?
I had only read two light novels and, well, a -lot- of manga when I approached Erin. I suspect the OP can read better than I could when I decided my listening was too far behind and hit on Erin. (Well, not 'hit on' Erin, although if only I was a couple decades younger... ahem. Nevermind.)
**('at this point' is though I think 18 months or more after I first did Erin's challenge and japanese subbed shows. Not really sure, I'm not very good with time. :o)
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-09-19
Thanks for the advice, Chris. I'll try Erin's challenge and watch some subtitled anime for starters.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - Xanpakuto - 2013-09-19
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:6 months from scratch?Xanpakuto Wrote:\It took me about 6 months do go from roughly where the OP is - able to read complex manga and light novels but not much listening practice - to being able to easily understand everything on Erin's challenge. That includes time watching subtitled doramas and anime as well, not just Erin's. At this point I almost always 'understand' what I hear in the sense of being able to transcribe it kana for kana, although I don't always understand in the sense of knowing every word or being able to choose the right kanji for what was said.
Wow by listening to the Erin challenges, I just realized how bad my listening is. How long did it take you to follow along? Does it get better over time?
I had only read two light novels and, well, a -lot- of manga when I approached Erin. I suspect the OP can read better than I could when I decided my listening was too far behind and hit on Erin. (Well, not 'hit on' Erin, although if only I was a couple decades younger... ahem. Nevermind.)
**('at this point' is though I think 18 months or more after I first did Erin's challenge and japanese subbed shows. Not really sure, I'm not very good with time. :o)
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-09-19
Xanpakuto Wrote:6 months from scratch?He is saying 6 months from around the point where I am (reading proficient), to then being able to become a good listener.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-19
Xanpakuto Wrote:6 months from scratch?No, no. 6 months from already reading Japanese but not being able to understand it in spoken form to being able to understand full-speed Japanese. I'd already been studying Japanese long before that, but could only understand spoken Japanese in v-e-r-y--s-l-o-w--l-e-s-s-o-n-s which have kind of unnatural speech patterns anyway. Even the 基本 skits were far beyond my listening ability at first, though reading the scripts for them was easy.
I don't think six months to get just your listening up to par is particularly good time, either... I've never set any records for my learning pace in any other aspect of my learning. I actually have very little natural talent for foreign language learning. Everything takes me longer and more effort than the average case. I'm just too stubborn to give up
Anyway, I only mentioned it because I think PotbellyPig is in the same position I was - i.e., literate but non-verbal.
Six months from start to being able to understand TV shows would be an impressive time, but not impossible I think (for people with more study discipline than I have), if you focus on spoken language early on. It'd be possible at least for shows where you already knew the vocabulary, e.g. an anime where had already read the manga.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-10-02
Just wanted to write an update. I found that listening to audio like on Erin's Challenge without some listening instruction before hand a little lacking. I saw the Kanzen Master N3 Listening workbook in the store and bought it. I found it to be very good. It reviews a lot of the colloquialisms (which I already knew from reading books) and what they sound like before getting into dialog scripts. The audio comes on 2 CD's and you can rip them using iTunes and put it on your iPhone. The tracks are all properly labeled. I like reviewing the audio on the iphone when I am not doing anything else. I'm just about finished with the workbook and I see that my listening skill gone from zero to decent. I still usually have to listen to a script multiple times to catch everything.
I just bought the Kanzen Master N2 listening book and have the N1 listening book on order. I really love this series. I have the N3,N2,N1 grammar and N2,N1 reading workbooks as well.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-10-02
Ah, I suppose that works well enough then.
Perhaps I should have mentioned,
http://thejapanesepage.com/audio
I'm not much impressed by the 'podcasts' but all the grammar lessons that have audio are also listed on the audio page, many of those have single word or short phrase audio. The traditional songs are easy to follow.
The stories are a little advanced perhaps, but are at a very relaxed if natural pace.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - drdunlap - 2013-10-03
The N1 listening isn't terrible but it's still slightly unrealistic (unless things have changed in the past two years).
I got a good boost in the listening department by watching all of One Piece over a boring spring break when I was in college. It's aimed at younger people- so that's good. But it's still normal speed and full of crazy slang and etc. Something like that may be good for your listening.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-10-03
drdunlap Wrote:The N1 listening isn't terrible but it's still slightly unrealistic (unless things have changed in the past two years).I just finished the N3 workbook yesterday. It took me a week doing it a few hours each day. Considering I started from scratch in terms of listening ability, I am quite pleased with the results. I will start the N2 workbook today. Hopefully it will take me about a week also. I listened to a few scripts and it doesn't seem that much harder than N3 since I already have the vocabulary basis. After that, I will by then have the N1 workbook and use it. I already used sub2srs to rip an anime into anki cards and plan to graduate to it after I finish the workbooks. Also I will use Erin's challenge site.
I got a good boost in the listening department by watching all of One Piece over a boring spring break when I was in college. It's aimed at younger people- so that's good. But it's still normal speed and full of crazy slang and etc. Something like that may be good for your listening.
I am not particularly interested in taking the JLPT tests since I am studying for my own goals and not for a job qualification or anything like that. But I have a question. In the listening tests, do they play the dialog scripts once or twice? Right now I am at the ability level where I think I won't catch every word unless I hear it twice. I would assume they only play it once though. Most of the time I pick up enough to answer the question on the first time though because of how the test is written but I like to pick up everything.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - drdunlap - 2013-10-03
I believe they only play it once. I was just referring to the possibility that the study materials would also be slightly robotic. But being prepared to graduate to realness is good.
I think seeing the Japanese school system and the fact that so many adults here can't understand spoken English unless each. word. has. a. pause. after. it. has made me paranoid. (´・ω・｀)
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-10-03
They do only play it once. I found this shocking and frustrating the first time I took a JLPT test because I somehow had been conditioned by study materials to expect it to be twice.
Also, be careful not to fill in a bubble after they play the example.
Somehow I always forget between the time they say 'this is just
an example' and the time the dialog ends... I'm sure I miss the first audio question every time because I'm busy erasing the answer to the example that I shouldn't have marked. :o
(Actually, they don't -say- 'this is just an example' because the whole test is in Japanese. They say 次の質問は例です or something. I'm sure the exact correct phrase is in some of the sample test materials.)
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-10-04
As a side note, has any tried Shadowing? It seems like a good method for listening and speaking. I think I may give it a go at some point.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - Xanpakuto - 2013-10-04
PotbellyPig Wrote:As a side note, has any tried Shadowing? It seems like a good method for listening and speaking. I think I may give it a go at some point.Does songs count? It's fun, and my listening actually does improve.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-10-04
Xanpakuto Wrote:From what I have read about it, you can shadow just about anything, especially songs. There is a Japanese shadowing book (I think actually two, beginner and advanced versions). I think I might pick one up. I'm getting poor by buying all these booksPotbellyPig Wrote:As a side note, has any tried Shadowing? It seems like a good method for listening and speaking. I think I may give it a go at some point.Does songs count? It's fun, and my listening actually does improve.
How should an intermediate learner start listening practice? - PotbellyPig - 2013-10-08
I'm starting to find the N2 listening hard to understand because of the speed. Do you think it would be best to go back and perfect my N3 listening skills before diving back in to N2? Or should I bear it and proceed since I am not taking a N3 test? Basically, I am not sure if practicing at N3, and getting better at it, would do better to prepare me for N2 listening practice rather than just doing N2 slowly.