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+--- Thread: Complete and total immersion? (/thread-11136.html)
Complete and total immersion? - Igloo9 - 2013-09-07
I've already learned hiragana, katakana, and I'm currently working on kanji.
But when it comes to understanding/speaking Japanese, is it possible to become fluent through 100% immersion? I know there's the AJATT method. But what I'm saying is, is it possible without using an SRS to study sentences/grammar/vocab? Once I learn the kanji (or while learning it) can I learn Japanese through "just" complete immersion and nothing else? (Japanese TV/games/websites/etc.)
Edit: So as long as I learn a bunch of vocab words during immersion, I can learn Japanese that way and not study actual sentences or grammar?
I read an article where a guy learned the 1000 most used Japanese words during immersion, and after that he knew like 80% of the language. And from that point on, learning the rest was easy. http://www.fluentin3months.com/japanese-in-a-year/
So is that possible?
Complete and total immersion? - yudantaiteki - 2013-09-07
No, it's not possible. Even the AJATT method doesn't literally advocate nothing but native Japanese sources from day 1 (or after finishing RTK).
Complete and total immersion? - quark - 2013-09-07
You can learn without Anki if you're working with textbooks and writing things down and doing exercises. But learning through 100% immersion without the use of textbooks or Anki doesn't sound realistic.
Complete and total immersion? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-07
More to the point, the AJATT method -does- encourage using SRS.
However.
Can you learn Japanese without using SRS? Absolutely, but it may take longer.
Can you learn Japanese without formal study (textbooks, JLPT guides, etc.)? Absolutely, but it may take longer.
Can you learn Japanese without talking to actual native speakers? Absolutely, but it may take longer.
Can you forgo all of those -at the same time- and still learn Japanese just by watching TV? .... No. That's ridiculous.
If there's some aspect of studying that you really don't get on with, you can probably skip it, but you can't simply -not- study in any way at all and expect to absorb a language.
Complete and total immersion? - dizmox - 2013-09-07
Sure. All you really need is a dictionary.
Complete and total immersion? - Igloo9 - 2013-09-07
So as long as I learn a bunch of vocab words during immersion, I can learn Japanese that way and not study actual sentences or grammar?
I read an article where a guy learned the 1000 most used Japanese words during immersion, and after that he knew like 80% of the language. And from that point on, learning the rest was easy.
So is that possible?
Complete and total immersion? - yudantaiteki - 2013-09-07
Igloo9 Wrote:So as long as I learn a bunch of vocab words during immersion, I can learn Japanese that way and not study actual sentences or grammar?Opinions apparently vary, but I'm still coming down on the side of "impossible."
Complete and total immersion? - Igloo9 - 2013-09-07
yudantaiteki Wrote:Well, it worked for someone else. Plus, I thought you just learned grammar naturally through context?Igloo9 Wrote:So as long as I learn a bunch of vocab words during immersion, I can learn Japanese that way and not study actual sentences or grammar?Opinions apparently vary, but I'm still coming down on the side of "impossible."
Complete and total immersion? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-07
I believe it -can- be done to study only vocabulary and absorb grammar purely through immersion. As long as you don't mind taking many years to do what could be done in one or two. But it's not very practical.
Also true immersion - living in the country - would be another case altogether. Having people in your face speaking in insistent yet simple sentences is very different from watching scripted dialogues. Having to communicate in the language to get food and shelter or anything else is a big motivator to work it out.
And 1000 words is nothing -near- 80% of the language, and even if it was, you need to be well over 90% known words in understood grammar to learn vocabulary from context. 95% might be reasonable.
In order to learn grammar from context you really need to know all the vocabulary in the sentence and be in a multiple-sentence context where you already totally understand the sentences around the one with the new grammar structure.
Also, remember, anybody with something to sell can make a youtube video -claiming- that they did something in record time using a magic technique. That doesn't make it true. And just because they aren't directly selling a book or a lesson doesn't mean they aren't selling something - speaker's fees are damn good money for a few hours work if you can get onto the lecture circuit.
Complete and total immersion? - Igloo9 - 2013-09-07
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Also, remember, anybody with something to sell can make a youtube video -claiming- that they did something in record time using a magic technique. That doesn't make it true. And just because they aren't directly selling a book or a lesson doesn't mean they aren't selling something - speaker's fees are damn good money for a few hours work if you can get onto the lecture circuit.It wasn't a Youtube video and there was nothing to sell.
This is what I'm talking about: http://www.fluentin3months.com/japanese-in-a-year/
Complete and total immersion? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-07
Benny has plenty of youtube videos and plenty to sell, but you believe what you want.
Complete and total immersion? - Igloo9 - 2013-09-07
SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Benny has plenty of youtube videos and plenty to sell, but you believe what you want.Can you be more specific?
Complete and total immersion? - HonyakuJoshua - 2013-09-07
yudantaiteki Wrote:No, it's not possible.
Complete and total immersion? - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-09-08
Igloo9 Wrote:Search the forum, this joker has been a topic before.SomeCallMeChris Wrote:Benny has plenty of youtube videos and plenty to sell, but you believe what you want.Can you be more specific?
Complete and total immersion? - Haych - 2013-09-08
You need a foundation of knowledge before you can really obtain any benefit from immersion. It is mostly useful as a method to refine previously acquired knowledge. No matter what you want to believe, you're not an infant anymore, and you're never going to emulate their method of learning languages. Pace yourself, young one. You've got a long journey ahead of you.
article Wrote:Today’s guest post is from Mars Dorian who writes over at I luv Empire
article Wrote:This article was written by Benny Lewiswat
Complete and total immersion? - NightSky - 2013-09-08
Immersion is extremely beneficial but at day 1 not extremely useful, you need to have a base to work from before immersion starts offering huge benefits. Cramming a few thousand words and then doing as much listening / reading as possible is likely your best bet.
I haven't read much of Benny's site but from what I have read I think hes pretty decent. I watched his mandarin video and he spoke about as well after 3-4 months as I had done myself from a similar amount of time studying (if anything I was actually better than he was). But I was living in China and doing 1v1 classes for 3 hours a day as well as tons of further study every night, I made it my life and saw incredibly fast progress doing it that way.
But I still had a teacher and did lots of studying. I don't believe if you just watch tons of TV in a language you don't understand you will suddenly master it faster than someone else who is actually studying grammar/kanji/vocabulary. You might get there eventually but its not the most efficient way.
Complete and total immersion? - blackbrich - 2013-09-08
Igloo9 Wrote:Benny's YoutubeSomeCallMeChris Wrote:Benny has plenty of youtube videos and plenty to sell, but you believe what you want.Can you be more specific?
What he sells (minus Learning with Texts, book recommendations, and best blogs)
So basically, he sells his Learning from Day 1 video set, Language Hacking Guide, Language coaching/consultation, and one-on-one lessons. Not that I have anything against someone monetizing their time.
Also here's a quote from the author of that original fluentin3months blog. It was in the comments.
Mars Dorian Wrote:yeah, download the free flashcard system Anki http://ankisrs.net/So yeah, he used Anki. He learned, but not based purely on immersion. It was a major factor, but not the only factor.
From there, you can download many free language decks (including those 1000-2000 Japanese words)
Side note: Benny advocates the talk from day one philosophy, but what many don't seem to consider is that he works hard every day during these three month missions. The speaking from day one is a major part of the method, but not the only part. Part of the blame lies on him, but when a newbie reads it they think "hey all I have to do is immerse myself and talk to natives, no other work necessary".
Consider this quote from a blog by Benny about how he spent his birthday while having to go to work. Imagine a regular day. And make note of the bolded and red portions.
Benny Wrote:Sadly, it wasn’t entirely a day off; I had to work in the morning, but took the afternoon off. The Internet slows down so much in this flat (I need the Internet to be able work) so when a page is slow to load, I could do what most people would; curse it and get angry and stressed out, or maybe simply do nothing and be patient (not my strongpointHe's making notes, getting corrected, reading phrasebooks, studying important words.). But when a page doesn’t open immediately, I just glance at the sheet of irregular verbs on the table beside my computer and go through one new verb. The website loads and I go back to work. Next time that it is slow to load I glance over at the next word and try to apply it to memory. After an intensive morning work period I’ve actually learned over 20 of the most important irregular verb past-tenses and parts of their conjugations.
Work is done, so I join a friend for lunch. We sit down and have a nice chat (in French!) but when she goes to the toilet, I could twiddle my thumbs or glance around or play with my phone… but instead I grab the bilingual menu and study some food vocabulary. I get the tram back home and as soon as I sit down, I take a photocopied sheet of important adjective opposite pairs out of my pocket and study for the “entire” 5 minute journey.
Later in the day it’s time to go out dancing! My friends go into the club before me, so when I’m in the queue by myself, I take out my phrasebook to study the small dictionary at the back. A girl beside me keeps looking at me and my phrasebook (not something people usually read in queues to nightclubs… if people were to actually read anything in such a situation…), so I start up a conversation with her and get to practise! She found my Czech quite amusing, but listened attentively and helped me say what I wanted. I soon had 4 of her friends listening to me and giggling as I was talking. Likely laughing at my many mistakes and silly way of speaking, but all listening to me attentively and even correcting me. Once they saw me dance they laughed much more…
Afterwards, it’s a 10 minute walk back to the night tram so I turn to particularly tricky words in the phrasebook and have a quick glance and put it back in my pocket as I think of a good detailed image association for that word… while I’m walking.
At the end of the day I’ve actually learned quite a lot, even though I wasn’t actually really “studying”. I had an excellent birthday, it was so much fun – I barely even remember actually studying, but I must have done the equivalent of maybe 1-2 hours of sitting down at a desk and in that day I did indeed learn some very important parts of Czech. I even got to practise!
Complete and total immersion? - Arupan - 2013-09-08
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Complete and total immersion? - uisukii - 2013-09-08
Arupan Wrote:[...]and buy a lot of alcohol. Enjoy!Where do I sign?
