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+--- Thread: Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? (/thread-11094.html)
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Laconexion - 2013-12-26
Hello fellow RtK scholars,
I just finished RtK 1, it took me 2 months of full time cramming but I was able to complete the book. One piece of advice I can recommend is that you get the latest version (RtK 1) otherwise you'll have to get the supplement to fill in the newest kanji that were added later. In any case, I was delighted to find this site with all the helpful stories and tips.
I cannot find a lot of information on RtK 2. There seems to be more negative comments than positive ones.
Being able to identify kanji in English is great but I want to be able to read them in Japanese. I get frustrated because I know the basic meaning but I don't know how to say it in Japanese.
Do I need RtK 2 or can I just just get RtK3? Any advice will be appreciated.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Katsuo - 2013-12-26
Having read many letters on this site over the years it seems most people prefer to pick up the readings in context as they study the language. RTK2 is more likely to appeal to those who enjoy making mnemonics.
If you're a beginner at Japanese then it's best to leave RTK3 at least for now and get stuck into the rest of the language. The kanji in RTK3 are mostly uncommon and some (maybe a hundred or so) are unfamiliar even to native speakers.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-26
I haven't done RtK volume 2, but I read the introduction. It explains that before you start using it, you need to:
1. Know the Kanji meanings from Volume 1 (in my experience, you'll have to continue reviewing for quite a while, to know them, just getting to the end is not good enough)
2. for ch. 1, know the Kana...the more familiar you are with it, the better, obviously
3. for chapter 6, you need to know common Japanese words "all or nearly all of which should have been learned during the course of a general introduction to Japanese conversation" (that's a direct quote)
4. Each reading you learn comes with an example of a word it is used in. It probably helps to actually know at least some of those words ahead of time. Otherwise, there would be no point in having that example.
Again, I haven't done RtK2 because I preferred to keep focusing on the language itself and worry about writing it later (I do use Kanji, I've finished Rtk1, but it's not my main focus). With that caveat, judging from the introduction, the first 6 chapters of it do seem especially useful. I think that whatever criticism people might have of Rtk2 (the one valid criticism could be that the rules that help you remember have way too many exceptions, therefor not worth bothering with), it doesn't apply to the first 6 chapters (which are very straight forward).
In conclusion, my advice would be to:
1. learn and practice both Kana.
2. do some basic Japanese materials (not gonna go into the details, there are so many threads).
3. do the first 6 chapters (perhaps skip ch.5, which already has a small wrinkle in it)
4. decide from there whether you want to finish the book, or go without the rest. The introduction states that, unlike with Vol. 1, you can pick and choose what you learn from this one. You can go without a lot of it, plenty of people have learned to read Japanese using only Rtk1 + vocab learning/reading practice, without RtK2 or any other material that focuses specifically on remembering readings.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-26
P.S. Found a free pdf with the introduction and a sample chapter from RtK2 (ch2). (I'm confident that this is made available with permission, it's not a copyright violation.) Like I said, not all chapters are this helpful, but this one is extremely useful.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp%2Fen%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F12%2FRK2-4th-Sample.pdf&ei=KuW7UsCkKuWL7AbujYGYDw&usg=AFQjCNENvhdbqdfzEH6Ap7O9KMqRZu1qgg&sig2=Iu25tsr22sYs14_O4I90Lw
The first example of the chapter, just in case someone doesn't feel like opening a .pdf file, gives 中 - on reading チュウ (for example, in the word 中国 ちゅうごく China) as a "signal primitive".
And then it gives three more Kanji which have the same reading, because 中 is in them: 忠, 沖, 仲.
You just learned the on reading of four Kanji. All four Kanji form a "pure group", there are no exceptions to the rule. There are other pure groups. Awesome, huh? Nothing to it.
Problem is, in later chapters, the exceptions start creeping in, making this organization far less useful. But the first few chapters are obviously worth it.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - ktcgx - 2013-12-27
I did RTK2 for the onyomis, and once I got over the initial shock, I actually quite liked the layout, and the way he goes through it, there's actually less to memorise than if you were going through the readings from vocab normally, because it's all organised by signal primitives, so with the help of those, you have about a third less work to do to get through all the onyomis. I didn't do the kunyomi bit, mainly because of a) no pre made deck for it, b) benkyo.co/iikanji website came out about the same time so for a while I was using that (but haven't finished it, will have to go back and do it at some point), and c) life got in the way and really messed up my study...
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - JusenkyoGuide - 2013-12-27
I did RTK2, honestly I'm glad I did, it's helped with core.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - AlgoRhythmic - 2013-12-27
Personally I just headed straight to grammar and Core after RTK1, and so far I have never felt even once that I missed something by skipping volume 2. Since you need to learn words anyway, and you will learn readings automatically while learning words, it feels kind of like a waste of time to study readings separately for every kanji.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Socky - 2013-12-27
AlgoRhythmic Wrote:Personally I just headed straight to grammar and Core after RTK1, and so far I have never felt even once that I missed something by skipping volume 2. Since you need to learn words anyway, and you will learn readings automatically while learning words, it feels kind of like a waste of time to study readings separately for every kanji.Yeah, as you're learning individual words you pick up on the readings of each kanji. I also think it's a waste to study On-yomi and Kun-yomi explicitly, but it's not up to me to decide how others study
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-12-27
Stansfield123 Wrote:P.S. Found a free pdf with the introduction and a sample chapter from RtK2 (ch2). (I'm confident that this is made available with permission, it's not a copyright violation.) Like I said, not all chapters are this helpful, but this one is extremely useful.the thing is you can notice this yourself from reading and using your brain and i'm sure there's sites that compiled patterns better or more completely
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&ved=0CD0QFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fnirc.nanzan-u.ac.jp%2Fen%2Ffiles%2F2012%2F12%2FRK2-4th-Sample.pdf&ei=KuW7UsCkKuWL7AbujYGYDw&usg=AFQjCNENvhdbqdfzEH6Ap7O9KMqRZu 1qgg&sig2=Iu25tsr22sYs14_O4I90Lw
The first example of the chapter, just in case someone doesn't feel like opening a .pdf file, gives 中 - on reading チュウ (for example, in the word 中国 ちゅうごく China) as a "signal primitive".
And then it gives three more Kanji which have the same reading, because 中 is in them: 忠, 沖, 仲.
You just learned the on reading of four Kanji. All four Kanji form a "pure group", there are no exceptions to the rule. There are other pure groups. Awesome, huh? Nothing to it.
Problem is, in later chapters, the exceptions start creeping in, making this organization far less useful. But the first few chapters are obviously worth it.
http://www.tofugu.com/2013/04/30/how-to-guess-a-kanjis-reading-you-dont-know/.
My answer to the thread is NO. go learn grammar, vocabulary, kanji reading etc.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Laconexion - 2013-12-27
Thanks for all the replies. Very interesting, it seems like some are all for it and others recommend to dive in without studying RtK 2. I think I'll get it just to see how Heisig organizes the book.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Vempele - 2013-12-28
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:the thing is you can notice this yourself from reading and using your brain and i'm sure there's sites that compiled patterns better or more completelyThat's not one of those sites, though. RTK2(+3) is more complete and far more accurate.
http://www.tofugu.com/2013/04/30/how-to-guess-a-kanjis-reading-you-dont-know/.
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=11002&page=2
https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/3283034296
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - JusenkyoGuide - 2013-12-28
Laconexion Wrote:Thanks for all the replies. Very interesting, it seems like some are all for it and others recommend to dive in without studying RtK 2. I think I'll get it just to see how Heisig organizes the book.*heh* You just summed up the response to every single study method, ever.
To expand (since it's far easier to type on keyboard than phone), it really does seem to come down to the individual. For me, it really has helped. It's far, far easier for me to tackle CORE with RTK2 under my belt than it would have been without it. Yes, I could have gained the knowledge via CORE, but I think it would have been more of a struggle as CORE doesn't go out its way to point out the patterns and signal radicals for onyomi. That means you're going to have to notice them yourself and memorize them plus the various kunyomi.
But, as from this thread, obviously that is me, others have had different experiences.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-28
JusenkyoGuide Wrote:*heh* You just summed up the response to every single study method, ever.How many hours of study did it take, compared to RtK1?
To expand (since it's far easier to type on keyboard than phone), it really does seem to come down to the individual. For me, it really has helped. It's far, far easier for me to tackle CORE with RTK2 under my belt than it would have been without it. Yes, I could have gained the knowledge via CORE, but I think it would have been more of a struggle as CORE doesn't go out its way to point out the patterns and signal radicals for onyomi. That means you're going to have to notice them yourself and memorize them plus the various kunyomi.
But, as from this thread, obviously that is me, others have had different experiences.
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:the thing is you can notice this yourself from reading and using your brain and i'm sure there's sites that compiled patterns better or more completelyIt would take quite a bit of "using my brain" to notice those patterns. My brain is a limited resource, and I'd rather use it for something other than reinventing the wheel.
You're right that RtK2 is not the only resource for this. But as far as better, especially for someone already familiar with how Heisig's mind works, that's debatable.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-12-29
Stansfield123 Wrote:by brain i mean reading japanese, watching japaense stuff, as in learning stuff in context which makes stuff memorable and notice kanji reading patterns along the way.JusenkyoGuide Wrote:*heh* You just summed up the response to every single study method, ever.How many hours of study did it take, compared to RtK1?
To expand (since it's far easier to type on keyboard than phone), it really does seem to come down to the individual. For me, it really has helped. It's far, far easier for me to tackle CORE with RTK2 under my belt than it would have been without it. Yes, I could have gained the knowledge via CORE, but I think it would have been more of a struggle as CORE doesn't go out its way to point out the patterns and signal radicals for onyomi. That means you're going to have to notice them yourself and memorize them plus the various kunyomi.
But, as from this thread, obviously that is me, others have had different experiences.
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:the thing is you can notice this yourself from reading and using your brain and i'm sure there's sites that compiled patterns better or more completelyIt would take quite a bit of "using my brain" to notice those patterns. My brain is a limited resource, and I'd rather use it for something other than reinventing the wheel.
You're right that RtK2 is not the only resource for this. But as far as better, especially for someone already familiar with how Heisig's mind works, that's debatable.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Savii - 2013-12-29
I tried it, and my conclusion was something in between: it's potentially useful, but there are better, more efficient ways to spend your Japanese study time (unless you need to be able to recall many readings in isolation for exams or something). Especially if you get your motivation from actually understanding native materials. Core 2k (or even just part of it) and starting simple reading practice early yield much better results to that end. You can always still do it later if you feel the need (maybe I will, too).
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Stansfield123 - 2013-12-29
howtwosavealif3 Wrote:by brain i mean reading japanese, watching japaense stuff, as in learning stuff in context which makes stuff memorable and notice kanji reading patterns along the way.You noticed that four Kanji that contain the primitive 中 all have the on reading of チュウ, just by reading and watching japanese stuff? Is that what you're telling me?
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - ktcgx - 2013-12-29
Stansfield123 Wrote:For me, RTK2 took a lot less time, because I had spare time over the summer, so I was able to get it done in about 8 weeks, whereas RTK1 had to be done on top of my job, so it was harder to put the hours in.JusenkyoGuide Wrote:*heh* You just summed up the response to every single study method, ever.How many hours of study did it take, compared to RtK1?
To expand (since it's far easier to type on keyboard than phone), it really does seem to come down to the individual. For me, it really has helped. It's far, far easier for me to tackle CORE with RTK2 under my belt than it would have been without it. Yes, I could have gained the knowledge via CORE, but I think it would have been more of a struggle as CORE doesn't go out its way to point out the patterns and signal radicals for onyomi. That means you're going to have to notice them yourself and memorize them plus the various kunyomi.
But, as from this thread, obviously that is me, others have had different experiences.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Vempele - 2013-12-29
ktcgx Wrote:For me, RTK2 took a lot less time, because I had spare time over the summer, so I was able to get it done in about 8 weeks, whereas RTK1 had to be done on top of my job, so it was harder to put the hours in.How much Anki time has it taken so far? And in case you did RTK1 in Anki, that too?
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - ktcgx - 2013-12-29
Vempele Wrote:Well, that was to finish (ie finish adding) the 5th edition of the book. I didn't bother to finish the deck in terms of getting all the cards to mature, mainly because life got in the way in a big way in September, and I still haven't recovered. My goals for next year will certainly be to get all the cards to mature, and release a deck for the 6th edition, based on the 5th edition deck I found on anki. As well as other study goals, of course.ktcgx Wrote:For me, RTK2 took a lot less time, because I had spare time over the summer, so I was able to get it done in about 8 weeks, whereas RTK1 had to be done on top of my job, so it was harder to put the hours in.How much Anki time has it taken so far? And in case you did RTK1 in Anki, that too?
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - wulfgar2 - 2013-12-30
To answer the subject question - yes, especially if your computer is too low. It's fits under a laptop nicely, and will raise it about 20mm.
Just finished...Do I really need RtK volume 2? - Sauzer - 2014-04-05
Stansfield123 Wrote:I don't know about him but for me definitely. Obviously it's something that emerges organically so it's not "okay this is a pure group" but rather "the last couple times a character had 中 in it, it was read チュウ so let's guess that." You're wrong a lot, but yes it is something you can just figure out.howtwosavealif3 Wrote:by brain i mean reading japanese, watching japaense stuff, as in learning stuff in context which makes stuff memorable and notice kanji reading patterns along the way.You noticed that four Kanji that contain the primitive 中 all have the on reading of チュウ, just by reading and watching japanese stuff? Is that what you're telling me?