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+--- Thread: Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? (/thread-11069.html)
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - screamingfields - 2013-08-12
Is it better advised to just go through Rtk 1, rather than doing both the reading and Rtk 1? Or is doing both better?
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - Zgarbas - 2013-08-12
Doing both at the same time is tiring as hell and not really recommended. Go with RTK and supply that with readings over time.
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - Inny Jan - 2013-08-12
Zgarbas Wrote:Doing both at the same time is tiring as hell and not really recommended. Go with RTK and supply that with readings over time.I didn't find that tiring at all! (And I was tested on "meanings"/Heisig keywords at the same time as I was learning/reviewing new words.)
BTW, who is this person who does not recommend Heisig + readings at the same time, and what are the reasons (apart of the subjective "it's tiring")?
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - yudantaiteki - 2013-08-12
Inny Jan Wrote:BTW, who is this person who does not recommend Heisig + readings at the same timeHeisig.
His reasons are somewhat doubtful but if you want to see them they're in the introduction to both RTK 1 and 2.
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - Zgarbas - 2013-08-12
It's tiring=>higher chance of burnout=>lower concentration, lower chance of retaining the plethora of information=>higher chance of losing all motivation and dropping out. Ergo, not recommended.
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - Inny Jan - 2013-08-12
yudantaiteki Wrote:Ah, that gentlemen. When you read the introduction it kind of makes sense. And I would fully agree with his argument if only learning kanji was the objective. But when you look at the overall issue of language study, the argument becomes less convincing (to me at least).Inny Jan Wrote:BTW, who is this person who does not recommend Heisig + readings at the same timeHeisig.
His reasons are somewhat doubtful but if you want to see them they're in the introduction to both RTK 1 and 2.
Zgarbas Wrote:It's tiring=>higher chance of burnout=>lower concentration, lower chance of retaining the plethora of information=>higher chance of losing all motivation and dropping out. Ergo, not recommended.What I found was that instead of monotonous drilling of kanji, I had activities of reviewing keywords -> kanji, reviewing readings + meanings of words, and was able to read texts that contained words with the characters I learned. I would bet that this way of progressing is much less tiring/boring than doing kanji alone (although it may be harder, I admit).
Maybe you can make an argument that learning kanji only is an easy process, hence less tiring, but what are you going to advise someone who has just completed RtK1 and now finds that learning actual words is two orders of magnitude harder?
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - howtwosavealif3 - 2013-08-12
no it's inefficient. maybe being aware of http://www.tofugu.com/2013/04/30/how-to-guess-a-kanjis-reading-you-dont-know/ this kind of stuff is useful... there's no need to hard-core memorize it and especially pairing it when rtk 1.
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - uisukii - 2013-08-12
Inny Jan Wrote:but what are you going to advise someone who has just completed RtK1 and now finds that learning actual words is two orders of magnitude harder?I can only speak from personal experience, but the process of understanding words is a lot easier now than it was prior to running through RtK. Correlation, casualty and pudding- not going to say RtK was the reason as to why vocabulary seems simpler now, but it does seem as though readings and kanji go together better.
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - pmnox - 2013-08-12
Other way is to follow Nukemarine's Suggested Guide for beginners: http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=5110
Which is basically like:
learn 500 kanjis from Heisig
Learn 500 new words
learn 500 kanjis from Heisig
Learn 500 new words
learn 500 kanjis from Heisig
Learn 500 new words
learn 500 kanjis from Heisig
Learn 500 new words
done xD
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - Zgarbas - 2013-08-13
Inny Jan Wrote:What I found was that instead of monotonous drilling of kanji, I had activities of reviewing keywords -> kanji, reviewing readings + meanings of words, and was able to read texts that contained words with the characters I learned. I would bet that this way of progressing is much less tiring/boring than doing kanji alone (although it may be harder, I admit).I'd argue that usually when a beginner asks for advice I recommend the easier process, as I find burnout a much bigger threat to beginners than any long-term threats
Maybe you can make an argument that learning kanji only is an easy process, hence less tiring, but what are you going to advise someone who has just completed RtK1 and now finds that learning actual words is two orders of magnitude harder?
. Especially since OP has another thread in which he states that he's already doing grammar and vocabulary while doing RTK and seemed burned out by it. Language study is always boring and difficult when you're a beginner, and though of course variation can be one way to cut out the boring part it doesn't work for everyone. Personally, doing readings at the same time as RTK was highly inefficient for me, and I already had a basic grasp of it (I had passed the N4 when I started RTK). The first few hundred kanjis were ok I guess, but after that it was simply too hard to remember both the keyword, the story, and the readings. Then again, I'm not the brightest crayon in the box so it might be about my own inability. Of course, it's only human to assume that other people share your ability to some extent when recommending things.
Also, we read OP's question differently. I read it as "doing RTK and memorizing the readings for each kanji as it goes". You read it as "Doing RTK while learning vocabulary". The latter seems much more viable, and doable, and can use RTK in an efficient manner to build up vocabulary. Perhaps the OP would care to clarify?
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - screamingfields - 2013-08-13
Zgarbas Wrote:I mean it by memorizing the readings for each Kanji. While I am still doing the vocabulary at the same time and that seems to being going alright. Memorizing the Kanji part isn't as easy, it takes time and like you point out, burning out can be an issue as well. There is indeed a problem learning the Kanji meanings and the Kanji itself it seems. I would prefer to firstly learn the Kanji and then the meanings, preferably one step at a time, as in first 500 and then the next and so on.Inny Jan Wrote:What I found was that instead of monotonous drilling of kanji, I had activities of reviewing keywords -> kanji, reviewing readings + meanings of words, and was able to read texts that contained words with the characters I learned. I would bet that this way of progressing is much less tiring/boring than doing kanji alone (although it may be harder, I admit).I'd argue that usually when a beginner asks for advice I recommend the easier process, as I find burnout a much bigger threat to beginners than any long-term threats
Maybe you can make an argument that learning kanji only is an easy process, hence less tiring, but what are you going to advise someone who has just completed RtK1 and now finds that learning actual words is two orders of magnitude harder?
Personally, doing readings at the same time as RTK was highly inefficient for me, and I already had a basic grasp of it (I had passed the N4 when I started RTK). The first few hundred kanjis were ok I guess, but after that it was simply too hard to remember both the keyword, the story, and the readings. Then again, I'm not the brightest crayon in the box so it might be about my own inability. Of course, it's only human to assume that other people share your ability to some extent when recommending things.
Also, we read OP's question differently. I read it as "doing RTK and memorizing the readings for each kanji as it goes". You read it as "Doing RTK while learning vocabulary". The latter seems much more viable, and doable, and can use RTK in an efficient manner to build up vocabulary. Perhaps the OP would care to clarify?
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - yudantaiteki - 2013-08-13
Learning just the readings is not such a great idea, primarily because it's hard. Few people have the memory capacity to remember out of context readings for more than a few hundred characters. Remembering that でんしゃ is "train" and is written with the kanji 電車 is significantly easier than just remembering that 電 is でん and 車 is しゃ.
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - DrJones - 2013-08-13
I've already finished RTK1 two times, the last one after having learned japanese, and here's what I suggest:
If you add the (most common) reading to each flashcards keywords, you'll be learning some ON readings at the same time you review and learn the kanjis, which is a more efficient use of your time, and it won't be a problem as long as you don't pretend to fail the reviewed flashcard because you got the reading wrong.
In fact, adding the ON readings will actually reduce your mistakes because it will let you differenciate between the plethora of synonyms and ambiguous keywords that you'll find in Heisig's book. If a kanji has extra meanings (such as 安 ), it's also better if you add 2 keywords to the flashcard. Using one single keyword is a mistake almost as big as using the wrong keyword (which Heisig also does plenty of times).
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - screamingfields - 2013-08-14
DrJones Wrote:I've already finished RTK1 two times, the last one after having learned japanese, and here's what I suggest:So what you mean to say it's a good thing to start learning the meanings from the start? What about learning them, say 500 at a time? Like learn 500 Kanji (English keywords) then 500 Japanese keywords to go with them, would that work?
If you add the (most common) reading to each flashcards keywords, you'll be learning some ON readings at the same time you review and learn the kanjis, which is a more efficient use of your time, and it won't be a problem as long as you don't pretend to fail the reviewed flashcard because you got the reading wrong.
In fact, adding the ON readings will actually reduce your mistakes because it will let you differenciate between the plethora of synonyms and ambiguous keywords that you'll find in Heisig's book. If a kanji has extra meanings (such as 安 ), it's also better if you add 2 keywords to the flashcard. Using one single keyword is a mistake almost as big as using the wrong keyword (which Heisig also does plenty of times).
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - DrJones - 2013-08-14
A good thing no, the best thing. If you are learning kanji chances are you want the knowledge for reading texts rather than for speaking. In that aspect, it doesn't matter too much if you don't know how to pronounce a word as long as you know (or can infer) its meaning.
There are many steps to take before you can read japanese texts. First, you have to learn the symbols, then their meaning, acquire vocabulary, learn how to spell it, and lastly, understand the context (as literal translations often don't make sense).
If you try to take all steps at once, you'll fail. Due to the way the brain works, you learn something better if you can attach it to something that you already know well (is already on your long-term memory). If you attach new information to something that you are still learning, you'll probably forget both, and you'll be left with the feeling that you could remember them if you only pulled from a string/memory that is no longer there. You'll only get frustrated that way.
Heisig uses a method known as "multimedia memorization", which generally uses at the same time images, meaning, sound and imagination to reach a retention rate of 80-95%. Heisig RTK1 lacks the sound (the kanji ON reading), which is why adding them to the flashcards can only improve the retention rate.
However, the more variables you add to the mix, the higher the chance you'll get one of them wrong, which is why you only have to focus on getting right the important ones: the symbol (what you are learning) and the english meaning (which is already on your long-term memory).
Now, once you have a subset of symbols in your long-term memory, there's no problem in attaching more information to them (like the ON reading) before you learn more symbols. In fact, some people in this forum already do this with the "RTK Lite" list. However, I believe acquiring vocabulary has higher priority than getting the ON readings right, as the readings for each symbol are pretty much arbitrary and change from word to word.
Doing Rtk 1 and the Japanese readings together? - sasayaki - 2013-08-17
Knowing a little bit of Japanese before I started this (and stopped and started again) I've added readings to words I already knew a reading or two for, so I could pick up another reading along the way. I didn't start doing this until I went through 400 or so characters.
If you're starting from scratch(no prior Japanese knowledge), I can see where it would quickly become overwhelming, because you don't have any way to reinforce what you learned by reading.