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+--- Thread: passive skills into active skills (/thread-10999.html)
passive skills into active skills - jordan3311 - 2013-07-19
I feel that I have a lot of passive skills in Japanese. For example, lets say I watch a video in Japanese and I understand everything. However, I would not be able to say what that person said. I understand the context of what is being said but I would not be to express myself in a way that can be understood. I have been making videos of me speaking Japanese trying to increase my speaking. I am trying to turn my passive skills in active skills. I hope I am making sense. Has anyone every even felt like this? If so what ways did you get pass this?
passive skills into active skills - ryuudou - 2013-07-20
Keep consuming Japanese. It means you haven't had enough input yet to think like a native.
"When you learn sentences in Japanese, do not force yourself to use them. Don’t try to remember them in order to say them. It’s too hard, and too failure prone AND, if you say the wrong thing, you might start building a bad habit, and on top of that, there might not be anyone there to correct you. Ever notice those people who live in an English-speaking country for 30 years but still don’t speak grammatically? That’s what happens when you force output too early. When the time comes for you to use those sentences, you’ll know. You won’t have to think or “work” at it as such; you won’t have to rack your brain. They’ll just come to you. Like when you’ve seen a movie so many times that you start to know all the dialogue."
- Khatz @ AJATT
If you're in a situation where you need to perform by a deadline then try shadowing or Lang8.
passive skills into active skills - meeatcookies - 2013-07-20
Try doing some hours of L-R. It's more effective than watching TV or some random reading in terms of how much material you go through in time, it's japanese language without any breaks. After a few tens of hours of it, you may notice that you can think in japanese.
http://www.forum.koohii.com/viewtopic.php?id=7082&p=1
passive skills into active skills - jordan3311 - 2013-07-20
I have been Shadowing for about a week now its not too bad. I also feel that making videos has been good as well it shows me what I know and helps me with thinking on the spot.
@meeatcookies What is L-R?
passive skills into active skills - meeatcookies - 2013-07-20
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6366
http://learnlangs.com/Listening-Reading_important_passages.htm#_Toc339978833
passive skills into active skills - dizmox - 2013-07-20
Talk to people in Japanese. By text or voice, it doesn't matter.
Not sure why this hasn't been mentioned yet.
passive skills into active skills - buonaparte - 2013-07-21
L-R (LR, mLR), if anyone's interested at all:
! L-R the most important passages by aYa
http://users.bestweb.net/%7Esiom/martian_mountain/!%20L-R%20the%20most%20important%20passages.htm
Purdue University L-R project
http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=36481&PN=1
passive skills into active skills - Tzadeck - 2013-07-21
ryuudou Wrote:Keep consuming Japanese. It means you haven't had enough input yet to think like a native.Complete bullshit. If you want to be able to speak or write in Japanese, you need to practice speaking and writing in Japanese. Don't sit around and wait for yourself to magically be able to speak or write in Japanese--it didn't work that way for me, and I don't think it works that way for most people.
"When you learn sentences in Japanese, do not force yourself to use them. Don’t try to remember them in order to say them. It’s too hard, and too failure prone AND, if you say the wrong thing, you might start building a bad habit, and on top of that, there might not be anyone there to correct you. Ever notice those people who live in an English-speaking country for 30 years but still don’t speak grammatically? That’s what happens when you force output too early. When the time comes for you to use those sentences, you’ll know. You won’t have to think or “work” at it as such; you won’t have to rack your brain. They’ll just come to you. Like when you’ve seen a movie so many times that you start to know all the dialogue."
- Khatz @ AJATT
passive skills into active skills - uisukii - 2013-07-21
EDIT: removed comment. Upon reflection, there are too many ways it could have further distracted this thread from the OP.
passive skills into active skills - Tori-kun - 2013-07-21
I'm having an eye on the development of this thread.
passive skills into active skills - Stansfield123 - 2013-07-21
ryuudou Wrote:Keep consuming Japanese. It means you haven't had enough input yet to think like a native.I agree with this, and it worked very well for me, in learning English for instance.
"When you learn sentences in Japanese, do not force yourself to use them. Don’t try to remember them in order to say them. It’s too hard, and too failure prone AND, if you say the wrong thing, you might start building a bad habit, and on top of that, there might not be anyone there to correct you. Ever notice those people who live in an English-speaking country for 30 years but still don’t speak grammatically? That’s what happens when you force output too early. When the time comes for you to use those sentences, you’ll know. You won’t have to think or “work” at it as such; you won’t have to rack your brain. They’ll just come to you. Like when you’ve seen a movie so many times that you start to know all the dialogue."
- Khatz @ AJATT
One thing that isn't mentioned though, is that focusing on production can speed up your progress. At least that is my experience. But only if you're producing correct, natural Japanese. Producing broken Japanese won't help you.
So, once you get to a point where you don't just understand native material, but are also able to distinguish between correct and incorrect Japanese (and, at least to some extent, also natural and unnatural Japanese), then you can start writing and speaking. But alway pay attention to what you write or say, and if you're not sure it's correct, look into it and then commit it to paper or video.
You want to avoid falling into the trap of developing and learning your own brand of Japanese. If you do, unlearning it will then be very hard.
P.S. Once you're able to, you should also try making yourself think about daily life in Japanese. When you want to make breakfast, think it in Japanese. When you're slicing the bread, describe it to yourself in Japanese. When you're tired, think about going to bed in Japanese, etc. It's not as difficult as it sounds, you can get into a habit of doing it pretty easily, by consciously conducting an inner monologue about whatever it is that you are doing at the time (when you're alone, of course).
passive skills into active skills - kaizer - 2013-07-21
What do people mean when they say they "understand"? I'm at the stage where I can understand simple sentences and dialogues, but I only understand them... cognitively (for lack of a better word), in other words I translate in my head when I hear the Japanese. I have a lot of canned phrases stuck in my head from grammar study.
Do you understand anything intuitively, without thinking?
passive skills into active skills - ryuudou - 2013-07-21
Tzadeck Wrote:Just because it "didn't work" for you doesn't mean it's invalid. This is logical fallacy. Furthermore science has verified the input hypothesis, and it remains the fastest way to speak and think like a native. The fact that it "didn't work" for you is likely a product of your subjective view of your own situation that doesn't account for whatever you did but aren't aware of that had derogatory effects on your learning.ryuudou Wrote:Keep consuming Japanese. It means you haven't had enough input yet to think like a native.Complete bullshit. If you want to be able to speak or write in Japanese, you need to practice speaking and writing in Japanese. Don't sit around and wait for yourself to magically be able to speak or write in Japanese--it didn't work that way for me, and I don't think it works that way for most people.
"When you learn sentences in Japanese, do not force yourself to use them. Don’t try to remember them in order to say them. It’s too hard, and too failure prone AND, if you say the wrong thing, you might start building a bad habit, and on top of that, there might not be anyone there to correct you. Ever notice those people who live in an English-speaking country for 30 years but still don’t speak grammatically? That’s what happens when you force output too early. When the time comes for you to use those sentences, you’ll know. You won’t have to think or “work” at it as such; you won’t have to rack your brain. They’ll just come to you. Like when you’ve seen a movie so many times that you start to know all the dialogue."
- Khatz @ AJATT
In summary: No.
passive skills into active skills - somstuff - 2013-07-21
Can you describe what's a one dollar bill, besides George and numbers in the corners, despite having seen them your whole life? (assuming your in the US)
passive skills into active skills - Haych - 2013-07-21
Tzadeck Wrote:Complete bullshit.I kinda agree. That whole quote is basically just "Hey, you know those people who SUCK at _____ language? Well, that's because they didn't use MY patented 'Khazumoto technique' ©!"
A vast generalization-- and it's not like hes offered any proof for it either. And proof is what you should have if your whole school of thought involves shutting down an entire avenue of learning. I don't know why you would advocate for that unless you have some real solid proof that the alternative is vastly inferior.
I think this whole passive vs active thing is very real. Its essentially analogous to reading the textbook vs doing example problems in physics or math--and really, what physics professor recommends that you ONLY read the textbook?
passive skills into active skills - dtcamero - 2013-07-21
I used to agree with that quote (based on krashen although I never heard Krashen say that specifically) until I did input hardcore for 2 years, and like OP said could understand most things yet was unable to form a sentence.
Input and output are like two different skills. Input is almost subliminal... It just magically makes sense after long enough listening. Output requires loads of practice.
Krashen never said don't practice usage... His input hypothesis was more focused on the understanding part really.
Khatzumoto talks about having lots of Japanese friends around constantly. That dude was outputting from day one. Honestly I think it's a misleading quote oversimplifying Krashen, that feels right to people who haven't been doing this for years.
The dangerous part of this idea is that it also makes you feel everything will be ok if you stay sitting safely behind the computer playing audio/video. If you want to speak a language you need to make friends that speak it. And at first it's really hard because you suck violently and nobody wants to speak to you in painful Japanese.
But moving from intermediate to advanced requires language partners.
passive skills into active skills - ryuudou - 2013-07-21
Haych Wrote:Antimoon extensively covers the input hypothesis, Khatzmoto has cited scientific support for the benefits of input, and there are thousands of people who serve as living examples of it's effectiveness myself included. There's also the simple logical premise that outputting is simply showcasing what you know from your knowledge bank. How do you build a knowledge bank? Input. There's absolutely nothing outputting *teaches* you besides comfort and reinforcement of what you've already learned. Input teaches you everything from sentence structure to grammar to a "feel" for what vocabulary is appropriate in any given situation.Tzadeck Wrote:Complete bullshit.A vast generalization-- and it's not like hes offered any proof for it either.
How about you? "I don't like Khatz"?
dtcamero Wrote:Khatzumoto talks about having lots of Japanese friends around constantly. That dude was outputting from day one.Khatzumoto has never said to completely avoid outputting; he only highlights the potential dangers of doing it too early, and that your input should always outnumber it in relative terms.
passive skills into active skills - dtcamero - 2013-07-21
ryuudou Wrote:Dude you are agreeing with us. Nobody here is arguing against the input hypothesis. The above quote did in fact say that you ought not practice output... That inputting until some magical point allows you access to correct grammar and usage.Haych Wrote:Antimoon extensively covers the input hypothesis, Khatzmoto has cited scientific support for the benefits of input, and there are thousands of people who serve as living examples of it's effectiveness myself included. There's also the simple logical premise that outputting is simply showcasing what you know from your knowledge bank. How do you build a knowledge bank? Input. There's absolutely nothing outputting *teaches* you besides comfort and reinforcement of what you've already learned. Input teaches you everything from sentence structure to grammar to a "feel" for what vocabulary is appropriate in any given situation.Tzadeck Wrote:Complete bullshit.A vast generalization-- and it's not like hes offered any proof for it either.
How about you? "I don't like Khatz"?
dtcamero Wrote:Khatzumoto talks about having lots of Japanese friends around constantly. That dude was outputting from day one.Khatzumoto has never said to completely avoid outputting; he only highlights the potential dangers of doing it too early, and that your input should always outnumber it in relative terms.