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+--- Thread: Just made a bet with my dad... (/thread-10924.html)
Just made a bet with my dad... - zurisu - 2013-06-27
Stansfield123 Wrote:Second, you could (and this is only for the test, not the way you review them), do the test in reverse order (recognize the Kanji).Maybe it's just me, but I have a significantly harder time going from kanji-to-keyword than doing my normal keyword-to-kanji reps. Is it just me?
Just made a bet with my dad... - blackbrich - 2013-06-27
dizmox Wrote:Yeh. He probably won't with just RTK. This was under the assumption of 4000.blackbrich Wrote:Quite the gamblers. Your gonna need srs, mnemonics, and your gonna need to eat and breathe kanji. Like when your taking a break from using SRS ur gonna need to be doing more kanji on the side. 2000 is a lot, 4000 that's just...He doesn't necessarily need mnemonics... they certainly didn't suit me.
I hope you set some specifics of this bet. If you have to remember the meanings and a reading also. That's gonna hell.
I did a first run through of RTK in about 40 days, with around 2 hours a day of study, no mnemonics, 95% retention or so, but I guess I had a visual familiarity with about 700 before I started. OP will be fine if he has a decent memory and doesn't quit, provided the goal is just to memorise RTK1.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Stansfield123 - 2013-06-27
zurisu Wrote:It's slower, because you have to decipher the Kanji. But slower doesn't mean harder. I think it takes more time, but you're less likely to fail a card going Kanji to keyword.Stansfield123 Wrote:Second, you could (and this is only for the test, not the way you review them), do the test in reverse order (recognize the Kanji).Maybe it's just me, but I have a significantly harder time going from kanji-to-keyword than doing my normal keyword-to-kanji reps. Is it just me?
The biggest obstacle is getting to the story, in either direction. Everything else (drawing the Kanji once you know the story, or listing the primitives based on the Kanji, or guessing the keyword based on the story, should be relatively easy - if you learned the 200 or so primitives properly, and you have good stories).
And getting to that story is easier if you see the Kanji, than if you see the keyword. If you see the Kanji, that automatically gives you 2-3 words that are in the story. It's obviously easier to recall a story from 2-3 words, than it is from just one (the keyword).
P.S. Note that I'm not saying he should do his Anki reviews Kanji to keyword. I'm saying he should take the test (where time doesn't matter) that way, to make it less likely to fail. The Anki reviews should always be done keyword to Kanji, for a couple of reasons (1. it's production, and production is better for learning than recognition; 2. you learn to write).
But recognition is always easier than production. And studying through production automatically leads to recognition.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Splatted - 2013-06-27
Stansfield123 Wrote:do the test in reverse order (recognize the Kanji).Don't do this. Make sure you're testing them the same way you're reviewing them otherwise it will be much harder.
Good luck. Maybe you can get your dad to agree to make it a little more forgiving than just won or lose. I.e.
95% 100% retention and you win.
85% - 94% retention and it's a draw.
0%-84% and he wins.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Stansfield123 - 2013-06-27
dizmox Wrote:He doesn't necessarily need mnemonics... they certainly didn't suit me.RtK is a book that only has mnemonics and advice on how to create your own mnemonics, in it. What exactly did you memorize from RtK, if not the mnemonics?
I did a first run through of RTK in about 40 days, with around 2 hours a day of study, no mnemonics, 95% retention or so, but I guess I had a visual familiarity with about 700 before I started. OP will be fine if he has a decent memory and doesn't quit, provided the goal is just to memorise RTK1.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Stansfield123 - 2013-06-27
Splatted Wrote:Don't do this. Make sure you're testing them the same way you're reviewing them otherwise it will be much harder.Don't do that. And, in general, never listen to someone who doesn't even try to give a reason for an arbitrary claim.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Animosophy - 2013-06-27
So that's 2000 kanji in 28 days.
I maintained a pace of 100 new words/day for 10 consecutive days while I did RTK (before life interruptions and whatnot). You'll need to go for triple that, which means no distractions. I hope you don't have any responsibilities.
I just about maintained 95% retention on any given day by using Anki's custom reviews on top of regular reviews the day before (review cards first > 100 new cards > Custom Review (cramming) cards from the last 2-7 days, depending on time/balls). I did only one >1000-card review day, and although challenging, it was very rewarding. You'll need to do at least two of these right before you're tested in order to cover all 2000 kanji.
Writing the kanji while you review (you'll need to do this for proof) will slow you down to a pace of ~150-200 cards/hour. I averaged about 180 review cards an hour (the green number in Anki, not total number of cards seen).
100 new cards studied at a natural pace (for me), with music, with koohii's mnemonics, took me 3.5 hours average.
If I could do it again, or if I were you (which I won't and which I'm not) my study days would look more or less the same:
Wake up
Start the playlist
Cook a day's worth of food, keep it beside desk, bring water
Kanji reviews (~150-200 cards/hour)
100 new cards (3.5 hours)
Breaks whenever mind wanders.
Optional except for the last few days: mass cramming (~200 cards/hour)
Good luck :p
Edit: I'm not really concerned about whether you continue to review after the bet (which is necessary if you want your efforts to mean anything, ESPECIALLY if you lose the bet by a small margin), I just think a laptop and bike is 10x worth the effort, haha.
Oh and you may need a playlist. I was airbanding in front of Anki at least a third of the time. It doesn't matter how passionate you are or what incentive you have; when you're spending 7+ hours a day on kanji, you need energising music to maintain a good mood. I could share the one that kept my going until the end if you cared at all, but your tastes may vary.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Vempele - 2013-06-27
Stansfield123 Wrote:Just how fast are your reviews? Mine are <5 seconds, I've never done anything but kanji-to-keyword.zurisu Wrote:It's slower, because you have to decipher the Kanji. But slower doesn't mean harder. I think it takes more time, but you're less likely to fail a card going Kanji to keyword.Stansfield123 Wrote:Second, you could (and this is only for the test, not the way you review them), do the test in reverse order (recognize the Kanji).Maybe it's just me, but I have a significantly harder time going from kanji-to-keyword than doing my normal keyword-to-kanji reps. Is it just me?
Stansfield123 Wrote:The Anki reviews should always be done keyword to Kanji, for a couple of reasons (1. it's production, and production is better for learning than recognition; 2. you learn to write).3. RTK2 will be all recognition so you'll get tons of recognition practice anyway.
Do you have a source for your claim that production is better than recognition for learning to recognize?
Stansfield123 Wrote:RtK is a book that only has mnemonics and advice on how to create your own mnemonics, in it. What exactly did you memorize from RtK, if not the mnemonics?It also presents the kanji in a convenient order, tells you what they're made up of and gives them names.
Just made a bet with my dad... - zurisu - 2013-06-27
Vempele Wrote:Well there's the difference. Stansfield recommended doing keyword-to-kanji the entire time except at the test, which would trip me up (since I've done keyword-to-kanji for forever), and probably would trip the OP up too. But if the OP did kanji-to-keyword from the start like you, then I don't think there would be as much of a problem (besides, of course, not having any writing practice and other things not directly related to the bet.)Stansfield123 Wrote:Just how fast are your reviews? Mine are <5 seconds, I've never done anything but kanji-to-keyword.zurisu Wrote:Maybe it's just me, but I have a significantly harder time going from kanji-to-keyword than doing my normal keyword-to-kanji reps. Is it just me?It's slower, because you have to decipher the Kanji. But slower doesn't mean harder. I think it takes more time, but you're less likely to fail a card going Kanji to keyword.
Edit: Also, thank you Stansfield for replying to me earlier, you made some good points
Just made a bet with my dad... - Zarxrax - 2013-06-27
My best advice would be don't start off doing 100 a day.
Try starting at 200 a day or more, and work your way down to 100 a day towards the end.
The reason for this is because if you are using an SRS to remember, then as you get closer to the end of the time period, your daily workload will be increasing by a LOT due to all of the reviews coming due.
So if you just aim for 100 every day, you are going to be spending considerably more hours each day towards the end than you do towards the beginning. By spending more time up front, you can maybe have a more consistent workload throughout, and then even have a while just for reviewing the troublesome ones.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Surreal - 2013-06-27
Animosophy Wrote:So that's 2000 kanji in 28 days.OP did you read this? Do you realize that you are going to fill one whole month of workdays consisting of nothing but anki reviews? It would be absolutely terrible for your psychological and physical health compared to pretty much everything except doing nothing. Couldn't you talk your dad into making a bet where you're going to bodybuild for a month and reach some weight lifting goals on top of learning like 1000 kanji instead? Or just, anything that is maybe a bit more active and relevant to keeping a healthy lifestyle. I know you didn't come here for this kind of advice but still, you should reflect on doing this. You should've considered what it would take in advance before making the bet - you might want to forget about pride and do what's better for yourself. Besides, I think that if your dad knew that the bet basically means you have to spend more than five hours a day staring at some kind of screen, he wouldn't want to make you do it. And really, as people in this thread attest to, that's not a matter of talent or motivation. It takes so much time to do this, no matter how effective you are.
I maintained a pace of 100 new words/day for 10 consecutive days while I did RTK (before life interruptions and whatnot). You'll need to go for triple that, which means no distractions. I hope you don't have any responsibilities.
I just about maintained 95% retention on any given day by using Anki's custom reviews on top of regular reviews the day before (review cards first > 100 new cards > Custom Review (cramming) cards from the last 2-7 days, depending on time/balls). I did only one >1000-card review day, and although challenging, it was very rewarding. You'll need to do at least two of these right before you're tested in order to cover all 2000 kanji.
Writing the kanji while you review (you'll need to do this for proof) will slow you down to a pace of ~150-200 cards/hour. I averaged about 180 review cards an hour (the green number in Anki, not total number of cards seen).
100 new cards studied at a natural pace (for me), with music, with koohii's mnemonics, took me 3.5 hours average.
If I could do it again, or if I were you (which I won't and which I'm not) my study days would look more or less the same:
Wake up
Start the playlist
Cook a day's worth of food, keep it beside desk, bring water
Kanji reviews (~150-200 cards/hour)
100 new cards (3.5 hours)
Breaks whenever mind wanders.
Optional except for the last few days: mass cramming (~200 cards/hour)
Good luck :p
Edit: I'm not really concerned about whether you continue to review after the bet (which is necessary if you want your efforts to mean anything, ESPECIALLY if you lose the bet by a small margin), I just think a laptop and bike is 10x worth the effort, haha.
Oh and you may need a playlist. I was airbanding in front of Anki at least a third of the time. It doesn't matter how passionate you are or what incentive you have; when you're spending 7+ hours a day on kanji, you need energising music to maintain a good mood. I could share the one that kept my going until the end if you cared at all, but your tastes may vary.
(In case you do go through with this though:
This is MADNESS!)
Just made a bet with my dad... - buonaparte - 2013-06-27
Finally something interesting, for the first time since I came to this forum some years ago.
That's not madness, such a feat is perfectly possible. There are conditions, however.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_%28psychology%29
If you can reach and maintain flow for weeks on end, that is. I can do it easily, not with Heisig or SRS, though, I find them inefective and boring.
I wonder if a bet is enough of a motivator.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Aspiring - 2013-06-27
^&,
</extrinsic vs. intrinsic motivation, flow>
There are a lot of other minor details (e.g. environment and fatigue). Minimize distractions, drink water, exercise, sleep, rest, all that.
12 Brain Rules
link found at darkjapanese.wordpress.com
Crawdaddycon Wrote:[...]Something that I think is key in avoiding frustration and burnout is enjoying each kanji for the kanji. It's been mentioned (flow) but it's difficult to flesh out the idea.
All advice is read and pondered thoroughly.
To view it from the opposite viewpoint:
"When you want to hurry something, that means you no longer care about it and want to get on to other things."
~ Robert M. Pirsig
Of course there is the competitive frame of mind, which forces you do whatever it takes to win. Although this works for games and sports, this kind of mindset worsens cognitive functioning and creativity. (according to a study on monetary incentives and their effects on performance)
As ryanjmack and Animosophy mentioned, we humans function optimally through intrinsic motivation. We perform best when what we do is something we really want to do. "Lose yourself in the moment", so to speak.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Northern_Lord - 2013-06-27
I hope you are extremely tenacious.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Surreal - 2013-06-27
buonaparte Wrote:Finally something interesting, for the first time since I came to this forum some years ago."Posts: 656"
... Why
buonaparte Wrote:That's not madness, such a feat is perfectly possible.(It's a set-up for a joke/celebration, left to out ripen.)
I never said crawdaddycon wouldn't be able to do it. Just that one can come up with many other just as challenging bets that have the added feat of likely being a lot better for her/his well-being.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Animosophy - 2013-06-27
Surreal Wrote:It would be absolutely terrible for your psychological and physical health compared to pretty much everything except doing nothing. Couldn't you talk your dad into making a bet where you're going to bodybuild for a month and reach some weight lifting goals on top of learning like 1000 kanji instead?I also went from a 3x5x70kg back squat to 5x3x140kg
I still had time for weightlifting 3x/week. I think physical exercise would be very wise in OP's position. Otherwise yes he will get a bit stressed out.Edit: I think buonaparte does make a good point. There will always be people who can do things better and for longer than others, simply because they love doing it.
A word of advice, too: if you focus on the financial incentives, OP, you have a lesser chance of succeeding. You have to truly want it for yourself (tackling the 2000 kanji) and let a desire for knowledge be your motive.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Splatted - 2013-06-27
Stansfield123 Wrote:It's no worse than listening to someone who gives a bogus reason for an arbitrary claim. As for my reasoning, I thought it was obvious: doing something you haven't practiced is harder than doing something you have practiced.Splatted Wrote:Don't do this. Make sure you're testing them the same way you're reviewing them otherwise it will be much harder.Don't do that. And, in general, never listen to someone who doesn't even try to give a reason for an arbitrary claim.
Just made a bet with my dad... - uisukii - 2013-06-27
To be honest in this context I think that the methodology which Stansfield123 has outlined sounds rather practical, based on my experience of a a large amount of kanji over a small time period. I can't really explain my reasoning anymore than has been explained by Stansfield123. The rest is, for the lack of a better word, "intuition". Not very convincing, I know, but I thought I'd throw another opinion into the mix which is based on experience of a similar undertaking.
Just made a bet with my dad... - RawToast - 2013-06-27
Stansfield1234 Wrote:P.S. Note that I'm not saying he should do his Anki reviews Kanji to keyword. I'm saying he should take the test (where time doesn't matter) that way, to make it less likely to fail. The Anki reviews should always be done keyword to Kanji, for a couple of reasons (1. it's production, and production is better for learning than recognition; 2. you learn to write).I know it isn't what you recommend for him to review, but that might be a faster way to do this. Recognition is usually faster/easier and doing RTK like that may speed up the process for some people, or at least be worth experimenting with for a second/third attempt... I wouldn't recommend it, because I have no experience with that method; nor have I read anything bar your comment on it!
I agree that reviewing in production and taking the test in recognition would make getting that 90% a tad easier.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Tzadeck - 2013-06-27
I'm confused about exactly what the test will be. Is it questions based on keyword, kanji, onyomi and you need to get 95% correct? Because that's imposible.
Just made a bet with my dad... - dizmox - 2013-06-27
Stansfield123 Wrote:How to write the kanji and their general meaning..dizmox Wrote:He doesn't necessarily need mnemonics... they certainly didn't suit me.RtK is a book that only has mnemonics and advice on how to create your own mnemonics, in it. What exactly did you memorize from RtK, if not the mnemonics?
I did a first run through of RTK in about 40 days, with around 2 hours a day of study, no mnemonics, 95% retention or so, but I guess I had a visual familiarity with about 700 before I started. OP will be fine if he has a decent memory and doesn't quit, provided the goal is just to memorise RTK1.
Just made a bet with my dad... - uisukii - 2013-06-27
Tzadeck Wrote:I'm confused about exactly what the test will be. Is it questions based on keyword, kanji, onyomi and you need to get 95% correct? Because that's imposible.I've asked the same question. Seems the original poster hasn't returned to the thread yet.
dizmox Wrote:How to write the kanji and their general meaning..Which volume of Remember the Kanji are you referring to?
Just made a bet with my dad... - ryanjmack - 2013-06-27
Ahh college level psychology class. Here's something I took out of that class.
Motivation can be divided into two types: intrinsic (internal) motivation and extrinsic (external) motivation.
Intrinsic motivation refers to motivation that is driven by an interest or enjoyment in the task itself, and exists within the individual rather than relying on external pressures or a desire for reward.
Extrinsic motivation refers to the performance of an activity in order to attain an outcome, whether or not that activity is also intrinsically motivated. Extrinsic motivation comes from outside of the individual. Common extrinsic motivations are rewards (for example money or grades).
The difference is in the long run intrinsic motivation will take you farther. You might be able to finish RTK in a month but will you be able to keep it up? I am by no means trying to doubt you. Just make sure this is what you want to do. But hey who knows if you finish RTK you will be off to a good start. If you win the challenge and carry over that discipline, you are primed for success.
Good luck man!
Just made a bet with my dad... - daevil - 2013-06-27
.
Just made a bet with my dad... - Crawdaddycon - 2013-06-27
Hey guys, just got done with day One. I went through 85 cards and I have quite the headache. I'll try to answer the questions you guys have as I have been quite unclear about a few components of the bet.