Grammar and Immersion - Printable Version

Grammar and Immersion - Printable Version

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Grammar and Immersion - Hirakana - 2013-06-15

I'm SRSing Genki 1 and 2 (as in the example sentences) and my basic plan is to recognize the grammar patterns so I can solidify them through immersion. So my question is, will this work? For example, take the grammar point
時（とき）
中国に行った時、茶を買います

I would put in the sentence, learn the grammar point itself, but NOT learn off the fact that it takes a past tense dictionary form no matter what the tense of the sentence. I would hope that immersion would take care of it for me. Is this a good idea? I don't know if I explained it properly.

Grammar and Immersion - yudantaiteki - 2013-06-15

Others disagree, but I think it slows your learning to completely avoid grammar explanations at all and only use immersion. There's too much danger of learning the wrong thing, and it's slower to pick it up that way.

Quote:it takes a past tense dictionary form no matter what the tense of the sentence.

This is not true; you can use past and non-past forms before 時 but they have different meanings.

Grammar and Immersion - Hirakana - 2013-06-15

I was just copying from my textbook.
I will read the grammar explanations and understand in what context they are used and for what purposes. What I'm saying is, could I pick up HOW they are used by reading and listening a lot?

Grammar and Immersion - Animosophy - 2013-06-15

Can't say I know the answer to your first post, but I had a similar problem wondering how fruitful/fruitless working my way up to immersion would be. It turned out fine once I went ahead and started doing it this week.

Compare, say, spending 350 hours on active listening in a year, to 1400 hours of listening, half of which was active in some way or another. It's less efficient (which usually isn't gd), but you get double the active listening + another 600 hours of passive listening (which is gd). Those extra hours will count. Over time you'd probably start listening more actively anyway. You can't read passively but using the L-R technique puts you in a situation where reading is necessary (let alone immersion), which is also good in our cases.

I had to unlearn a perfectionist mindset of getting things done sequentially, too (i.e. RTK reviews after breakfast then shadowing then grammar then SRS), and now I do shadowing (almost literally) whenever I can, L-R whenever I can, and spend a 4-hour window in my daily routine on ADoBJG and Anki. Just a personal anecdote, hope you can take something from it Smile

Edit: and on grammar specifically, I think it's useful to make notes in your own words when you learn new grammar points, not just reading them in an SRS.

http://www.lifehack.org/articles/productivity/writing-and-remembering-why-we-remember-what-we-write.html

Quote:What this and other tests suggest is that when we write — before we write, although indistinguishably so — we are putting some degree of thought into evaluating and ordering the information that we are receiving. That process, and not the notes themselves, is what helps fix ideas more firmly in our minds, leading to greater recall down the line.

I do this for all new grammar and it definitely helps my recognition.

Grammar and Immersion - buonaparte - 2013-06-15

Hirakana Wrote:What I'm saying is, could I pick up HOW they are used by reading and listening a lot?

You probably could, but it would be VEERRRYYYY slow.
When I start learning a new language I ALWAYS read at least two grammar books to get an idea how it works in a given language. It speeds things tremendously.
By the way, I learn through immersion – I use native materials: audiobooks + matching e-text + translation + a pop-up dictionary.
I never use SRS, because it’s very slow and boring.

BUT...
to read grammar books you must want to read them and be in a position to read them; knowing your own L1 (native language) grammar well helps a lot.

Grammar and Immersion - yudantaiteki - 2013-06-15

Also the grammar guides vary a lot in depth of coverage and technical language. Something like DBJ is low on the technical side and has a lot of examples; "grammar" doesn't have to mean pages and pages of dry, technical linguistics.

Grammar and Immersion - buonaparte - 2013-06-15

The best beginner-friendly and jargon-free grammar book is to be found here:
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/
J 00 Hugo Japanese In Three Months.7z
Eplanations in plain English.
Examples sentences: kanji-spaced hirgana-English + audio by Japanese native speakers.

Grammar and Immersion - nadiatims - 2013-06-15

Hirakana Wrote:中国に行った時、茶を買います

What do you think this sentence means?

Read translated example sentences, but don't expect to really learn the grammar at that exact moment, or think that memorizing a grammar description is the same as internalizing (acquiring) the grammar. What your brain is actually doing when intuitively comprehending input, especially real time audio, or when speaking fluidly has very little to do with any learned grammar discription. You're relying on some other acquired skill.
So I'd suggest not mistaking grammar as the end goal, but rather as a tool that is useful in so much as it can help you understand things (text in particular). If you've never learned a language before, it mprobably is a good idea to get a basic overview of grammar. After that it's good enough to just use google/dictionaries as reference. When you don't understand something and that bothers you, look it up or ask someone.
Don't expect to get a particulally accurate understanding of grammar from translated example sentences in textbooks though, try to find something that actually explains more technically, word by word, the basics of how particles/word order verb tenses etc work, and then learn using comprehensible content that is engaging to you. Just looking at supposedly equivalent sentence pairs often gives you very little understanding of 'why' they are equivalent or how they are only semantically the same under certain circumstances.

Grammar and Immersion - Animosophy - 2013-06-15

buonaparte Wrote:The best beginner-friendly and jargon-free grammar book is to be found here:
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/
J 00 Hugo Japanese In Three Months.7z
Eplanations in plain English.
Examples sentences: kanji-spaced hirgana-English + audio by Japanese native speakers.

Hey buonaparte, thanks for the link. I downloaded the file but there's no word document. Are the audio file names themselves the L-R material?

/not-thread-jacking Smile

Grammar and Immersion - chamcham - 2013-06-15

Hirakana Wrote:I'm SRSing Genki 1 and 2 (as in the example sentences) and my basic plan is to recognize the grammar patterns so I can solidify them through immersion. So my question is, will this work? For example, take the grammar point
時（とき）
中国に行った時、茶を買います

I would put in the sentence, learn the grammar point itself, but NOT learn off the fact that it takes a past tense dictionary form no matter what the tense of the sentence. I would hope that immersion would take care of it for me. Is this a good idea? I don't know if I explained it properly.

The sentence is wrong. Either it should be "iku toku" or kaimashita".
Right now, the sentence says something like "When i was in China, i will buy tea."

It should either say "When i go to China, i will buy tea" or "When i was in China, i bought tea."

Grammar and Immersion - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-06-15

buonaparte Wrote:I learn through immersion – I use native materials: audiobooks + matching e-text + translation + a pop-up dictionary.
I never use SRS, because it’s very slow and boring.

Hi Buonaparte,

I'm interested in how you study. I've SRS'd for years, and I agree with you about it being slow and boring.

Can I ask if you did RTK? I'm wondering because it seems like it would be difficult to break into native materials without first having some grounding in kanji.

I'd like to learn a bit more about how you got to where you're at.

Grammar and Immersion - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-06-15

chamcham Wrote:
Hirakana Wrote:中国に行った時、茶を買います
The sentence is wrong.

For what it's worth, I happened to be sitting next to a Japanese friend of mine when I read this, and when I asked her, she said it was correct.

Grammar and Immersion - SomeCallMeChris - 2013-06-15

Hirakana Wrote:中国に行った時、茶を買います

This is an example of how the Japanese 'past' tense isn't really entirely 'past' (in case the ～たほうがいい grammar didn't already make that obvious.) This sentence means 'When I have gotten to China, I will buy tea.' (ie, in China.)

If you try to 'fix' this (actually correct) sentence and make it consistently 'future',
中国に行く時、茶を買います
Now you're saying "When I'm going to China, I will buy tea." (Maybe just before your departure or en route, but in any case, you'll buy the tea before you get to China.)

Making it consistently past,
中国に行った時、茶を買いました
is perhaps the only one immediately intuitive to a native English speaker, as it results in simply, "When I went to China, I bought tea."

Grammar and Immersion - buonaparte - 2013-06-16

Animosophy Wrote:
buonaparte Wrote:The best beginner-friendly and jargon-free grammar book is to be found here:
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/
J 00 Hugo Japanese In Three Months.7z
Eplanations in plain English.
Examples sentences: kanji-spaced hirgana-English + audio by Japanese native speakers.
Hey buonaparte, thanks for the link. I downloaded the file but there's no word document. Are the audio file names themselves the L-R material?

/not-thread-jacking

JCP in
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/
is a folder. It contains all the necessary materials and docs.
! JCP info folders and files.txt lists the contents.
JCtexts.7z all the texts are in this file.

JCP is a sub-folder of
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain
that contains more learning materials.

More about it here:
http://forum.koohii.com/showthread.php?tid=6840

Grammar and Immersion - buonaparte - 2013-06-16

JapaneseRuleOf7 Wrote:
buonaparte Wrote:I learn through immersion – I use native materials: audiobooks + matching e-text + translation + a pop-up dictionary.
I never use SRS, because it’s very slow and boring.
Hi Buonaparte,

I'm interested in how you study. I've SRS'd for years, and I agree with you about it being slow and boring.

Can I ask if you did RTK? I'm wondering because it seems like it would be difficult to break into native materials without first having some grounding in kanji.

I'd like to learn a bit more about how you got to where you're at.

I didn't do Heisig. RTK is not the only way, I would never do it. I just learned all the classical bushu (classifiers, radicals) and their Japanese names, and general stroke order rules. It took me two afternoons.

How I learn languages.
! L-R the most important passages.htm
http://users.bestweb.net/%7Esiom/martian_mountain/!%20L-R%20the%20most%20important%20passages.htm

Grammar and Immersion - JapaneseRuleOf7 - 2013-06-16

buonaparte Wrote:I didn't do Heisig. RTK is not the only way, I would never do it. I just learned all the classical bushu (classifiers, radicals) and their Japanese names, and general stroke order rules. It took me two afternoons.

How I learn languages.
! L-R the most important passages.htm
http://users.bestweb.net/%7Esiom/martian_mountain/!%20L-R%20the%20most%20important%20passages.htm

That's far more than I'd hoped for. In fact, it's awesome. Thank you very much.

Grammar and Immersion - Hirakana - 2013-06-16

chamcham Wrote:
Hirakana Wrote:I would put in the sentence, learn the grammar point itself, but NOT learn off the fact that it takes a past tense dictionary form no matter what the tense of the sentence. I would hope that immersion would take care of it for me. Is this a good idea? I don't know if I explained it properly.
The sentence is wrong. Either it should be "iku toku" or kaimashita".
Right now, the sentence says something like "When i was in China, i will buy tea."

Well, my textbook (Genki 2) has that sentence in it so I'm afraid you're the one who's wrong here.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Japanese grammar is easy to see in input. You can know a word but not be able to use it in output. What I'm saying is, if I immerse for a year+ could I pick up how words are used in grammar patterns for use in output? At least for the basic (N5-N3) grammar?

Grammar and Immersion - uisukii - 2013-06-16

Hirakana Wrote:
chamcham Wrote:
Hirakana Wrote:I would put in the sentence, learn the grammar point itself, but NOT learn off the fact that it takes a past tense dictionary form no matter what the tense of the sentence. I would hope that immersion would take care of it for me. Is this a good idea? I don't know if I explained it properly.
The sentence is wrong. Either it should be "iku toku" or kaimashita".
Right now, the sentence says something like "When i was in China, i will buy tea."
Well, my textbook (Genki 2) has that sentence in it so I'm afraid you're the one who's wrong here.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Japanese grammar is easy to see in input. You can know a word but not be able to use it in output. What I'm saying is, if I immerse for a year+ could I pick up how words are used in grammar patterns for use in output? At least for the basic (N5-N3) grammar?

Depending on how active the immersion is (watching something relaxed while having a few beers Vs watching something and listening to the dialogue very carefully and relating it to what you're learning, on the fly) in respect to the increase in comprehension. As to output it would be hard to learn without experiencing corrections, mistakes, etc.

Your mileage way vary, but without practiced output (on Japanese language forums, writing websites, speaking with people, etc.), I wouldn't expect your output to improve greatly. Comparable to your own native language and the process of creative writing: those who write various forms of literature, aside from reading probably more than the average person, they also output volumes more than the non-writer. The act of output helps re-enforce or correct learned patterns, etc. in a physical manner which has a neural involvement which immersion without output simply does not provide.

Grammar and Immersion - Vempele - 2013-06-16

SomeCallMeChris Wrote:
Hirakana Wrote:中国に行った時、茶を買います
This is an example of how the Japanese 'past' tense isn't really entirely 'past'

No, it's not limited to past tense, it's an example of how tenses in subordinate clauses in Japanese are relative, not absolute.

The clause 中国に行った occurs in the past of 茶を買います, not in the past of 'now'.

茶を買います can't happen in the past and there is a time specified for it to happen (and that time isn't specified to be 'now'), so it must occur in the future.

中国に行った must also occur in the absolute future because... I can think of a couple potential explanations but none that I can be certain are 100% correct and generic enough to be useful so I'll just go with "because it makes the most sense".

Quote:(in case the ~たほうがいい grammar didn't already make that obvious.)

Now this one seems genuinely weird. What's the difference between between [past]ほうが[any adjective or adverb] and nonpast? I failed to find any pattern at all. Both are used to say the same sorts of things in the example sentences I looked at.

Grammar and Immersion - chamcham - 2013-06-16

Hirakana Wrote:
chamcham Wrote:
Hirakana Wrote:I would put in the sentence, learn the grammar point itself, but NOT learn off the fact that it takes a past tense dictionary form no matter what the tense of the sentence. I would hope that immersion would take care of it for me. Is this a good idea? I don't know if I explained it properly.
The sentence is wrong. Either it should be "iku toku" or kaimashita".
Right now, the sentence says something like "When i was in China, i will buy tea."
Well, my textbook (Genki 2) has that sentence in it so I'm afraid you're the one who's wrong here.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that Japanese grammar is easy to see in input. You can know a word but not be able to use it in output. What I'm saying is, if I immerse for a year+ could I pick up how words are used in grammar patterns for use in output? At least for the basic (N5-N3) grammar?

In this case, i was wrong. But textbooks often have errors. Just search for "errata".

Grammar and Immersion - yudantaiteki - 2013-06-16

The final predicate determines the tense of the whole sentence. So if it's non-past then the whole sentence is non-past, and the 行った is complete at the time the final predicate occurs. So for 中国に行った時、茶を買います, we know the whole sentence is non-past so it has to mean "I will buy tea", and the perfective before 時 makes it finished before the tea is bought. 行く in this case means something closer to "arrive".

Quote:What's the difference between between [past]ほうが[any adjective or adverb] and nonpast?

ったほうがいい points to a specific situation -- i.e. if you do that (if that action is completed), it will be good. non-pastほうがいい is just a general statement of what is good.

Grammar and Immersion - Vempele - 2013-06-16

yudantaiteki Wrote:
Quote:What's the difference between between [past]ほうが[any adjective or adverb] and nonpast?
ったほうがいい points to a specific situation -- i.e. if you do that (if that action is completed), it will be good. non-pastほうがいい is just a general statement of what is good.

Thanks. All the exceptions to the first were indeed things other than いい. As for the latter:

今のうちに手術をするほうがいい.　You had better have the operation before it is too late.

Also, I thought it was always "better", never just "good".

Grammar and Immersion - yudantaiteki - 2013-06-16

"You had better" is not a good English translation for ほうがいい because the English expression is much stronger than the Japanese equivalent in many cases. Sometimes the Japanese expression is used to soften a statement of something you need to do, but other times it's just a suggestion. (Technically because of the ほう it does mean "better".)

Quote:今のうちに手術をするほうがいい

Where did you get that sentence? Everything I've read about the structure says that should be したほうがいい since you're talking about a specific situation.

Grammar and Immersion - Vempele - 2013-06-16

Quote:
Quote:今のうちに手術をするほうがいい
Where did you get that sentence? Everything I've read about the structure says that should be したほうがいい since you're talking about a specific situation.

The Green Goddess.

Grammar and Immersion - yudantaiteki - 2013-06-16

Well, actual usage doesn't always match the explanations 100%.